discuss: Thread: Advertisement banner on tldp.org?

Hi guys,
I have some plans for the current year. And some of my plans include to
"invest" some money to some Open Source project and I wish that project to
be TLDP.
I wish to start a company that offers some GNU/Linux-friendly services and
probably I will need to spread the word about that.
So, I wish to put advertisement on tldp.org. I am glad of the choice to do
that because my money will go for the good cause.
Instead to buy advertisement from another site I wish to give that money to
TLDP.
What do you think? I think, the project probably will need some funding in
the future and this is good way to do this.

-- 
Svetoslav Petkov Chukov

On Sat, Jan 03, 2009 at 01:08:41AM +0200, Svetoslav Petkov Chukov wrote:
> Hi guys,
> I have some plans for the current year. And some of my plans include to
> "invest" some money to some Open Source project and I wish that project to
> be TLDP.
> I wish to start a company that offers some GNU/Linux-friendly services and
> probably I will need to spread the word about that.
> So, I wish to put advertisement on tldp.org. I am glad of the choice to do
> that because my money will go for the good cause.
> Instead to buy advertisement from another site I wish to give that money to
> TLDP.
> What do you think? I think, the project probably will need some funding in
> the future and this is good way to do this.

> Svetoslav Petkov Chukov

LDP doesn't need funding since we have no one to handle funds.  Our
existing funds have greatly gone down in value over the years due to
inflation and the failure of anyone stepping forward to invest them
properly so they would not loose value.  There was inflation-protected
securities and gold which have retained their value or appreciated in
real value.  However, another problem was that we couldn't invest them
directly since we are not incorporated.

But even if we were set up to handle money I would oppose the above
since LDP should, IMO, be non-commercial with no ads.	

			David Lawyer

> But even if we were set up to handle money I would oppose the above
> since LDP should, IMO, be non-commercial with no ads.	

That's what I thought we agreed when we were discussing HOWTO-Forge a
while back, and how it was all well and good but the ads left you
feeling like you needed a shower.

It's too bad we have to turn down mostly free money like this
(although I rather it come from Microsoft's 'Learn the "Facts"'
campaign - which I'm guessing went down along with the London stock
exchange).

It'd be nice to get a charity status some day.  That would give people
an incentive to give to us (and probably much higher returns than
banner ads).  We just need a CPA or CA to join the LDP.  Or I need to
get my act together and get a CA...

Borden

Quoting Borden Rhodes ####@####.####

> We just need a CPA or CA to join the LDP.  Or I need to
> get my act together and get a CA...

I am not a CPA (nor an attorney; I'm just a sysadmin), but _did_ pass
the CPA exam many years ago, and can get those three letters appended to
my name any time I'm willing to go back to being an apprentice auditor
for about an additional year and a half.  (An expression about snowballs
and Hell comes to mind.  ;-> )

And, as someone who's been a tax practitioner (but I say again, as a
necessary disclaimer, I have _not_ been one in recent decades), I can
say that LDP is not a group I would have counselled to go 501(c)(3),
which is what you discuss below.

It's surprising how often this matter comes up on this mailing list.
We've been through most of this before.


> It'd be nice to get a charity status some day.  That would give people
> an incentive to give to us (and probably much higher returns than
> banner ads).

That would give some people a minor incentive to give donations to
LDP, but not all.  You're referring to tax-deductibility, but most of the 
people / companies who're likely to donate to LDP already have
independent justification for taking a tax deduction, without charity
status:  For example, under USA law, those deductions would be
deductible by many donors as promotional or other business expenses.

In the USA's tax model, the donor's advantage from IRS-recognised
501(c)(3) charity status is that donor can _categorically_ deduct the
expense without needing to fit it into any deduction category.

However, this minor inducement advantage comes at a significant cost in
time, effort, and money.

1.  The organisation first must incorporate (required for the 501(c)(3)
category).  This means first writing a set of articles of incorporation
and set of bylaws, carefully tailoring the contents to avoid triggering
any of IRS's prohibitions about what a charity is permitted to do.  (If
you screw this up, your efforts and money spent in step 2 will be
wasted, as the Form 1023 application will be rejected after a delay of
many months, at which point you'll need to start all over again.)

In California (as an example), the articles of incorporation filing
requires a $30 fee.  Then, you have to file an Exemption Application
(FTB Form 3500) with the Franchise Tax Board seeking state recognition
of non-profit status.  That needs a $25 fee.  And, naturally, that
form's required disclosures are pretty complex, too.

2.  The organisation must then file Form 1023 to apply to the IRS for
501(c)(3) recognition.  This form include a section where you basically
do a set of financial statements for the three most recently past tax
years, plus a great deal more information.  You also must provide, if
the group expects low levels of annual gross revenues (below US $10,000
per year), a $300 non-refundable application fee ("user fee").

Expect to wait a _long_ time (many months, minimum) for IRS to say yes
or no to such a form asking for a 501(c)(3) "determination letter".
And, of course, the answer can indeed be "no".

Every year _after_ such a determination is granted, the group is
potentially on the hook to file a Form 990 tax return.  Of course, they
basically don't want to hear from you (with rare exceptions, which don't
apply to LDP) unless your group's gross revenues for the year have
exceeded $25,000.  Which basically shows, itself, how ludicrous this
whole notion of tax-exempt status for LDP is:  The tax authorities just
don't give a damn about entities that aren't many orders of magnitude
more economically significant than LDP is, and it'd never occur to them
to seek income tax from it.

3.  Every two years (again, using California as an example), the group
needs to file a "Statement of Information" with the Secretary of State.
This is a pretty simple form, saying who the principal officers are, and
who can accept service of process if someone ever wants to sue the
corporation.  The Statement of Information, Form SI-100, requires
another $20 fee.

So, this effort will have you out of pocket US $375 right away, not
counting untold hours working through the paperwork, and IRS still would
have to say "yes".

For that, you have some slender gains, including in some areas you
haven't discussed, but far less than is often assumed.  See my writeup
called "Common Misconceptions Debunked" in the Linux User Group HOWTO,
http://en.tldp.org/HOWTO/User-Group-HOWTO-7.html#ss7.1 .

The group would also become somewhat strait-jacketed by IRS's
regulations.  For example, are you not entirely fond of the DMCA?  Well,
if LDP were to go 501(c)(3), it could not thereafter indulge in a
"significant portion" of its activities doing anything that could be
construed as lobbying, i.e., efforts to affect the law, or it would risk
its charity recognition.  And there are other, fairly rigid
restrictions.

Having dealt with all that, LDP would be a tax-exempt charity in _one_
country.  Now, do a similar drill with every other country of interest.
Have fun!

-- 
Cheers,              Crypto lets someone say "Hi! I absolutely definitely have 
Rick Moen            a name somewhat like the name of a large familiar 
####@####.####  organization, and I'd like to steal your data!" and lots 
McQ!  (4x80)         of users will say "OK, fine, whatever."    -- John Levine 

Svetoslav Petkov Chukov a écrit :

> What do you think? I think, the project probably will need some funding in
> the future and this is good way to do this.
> 

the best way to support the LDP is probably opening a mirror. This
gives you the reverse benefit of being referenced on the LDPmirror page.

I fear having adds would give problems with mirrors

jdd
-- 
jdd for the Linux Documentation Project
http://wiki.tldp.org
http://www.dodin.net
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1412160445

On Mon, Jan 05, 2009 at 09:09:28PM -0800, Rick Moen wrote:
> Quoting Borden Rhodes ####@####.####
> 
> > We just need a CPA or CA to join the LDP.  Or I need to
> > get my act together and get a CA...
> 
[snip] 
> And, as someone who's been a tax practitioner (but I say again, as a
> necessary disclaimer, I have _not_ been one in recent decades), I can
> say that LDP is not a group I would have counselled to go 501(c)(3),
> which is what you discuss below.
> 
> It's surprising how often this matter comes up on this mailing list.
> We've been through most of this before.
> 
> 
> > It'd be nice to get a charity status some day.  That would give people
> > an incentive to give to us (and probably much higher returns than
> > banner ads).

It would also be nice to someday list ourselves on "volunteer match" to
recruit volunteers nationwide, which we could do if we incorporated.

But Rick Moen is right, that "someday" is not now.  Even though it
would cost a few hundred dollars plus, and take a lot of time to
incorporate, I think it would be worthwhile if we had enough
volunteers, not only to do the incorporation but to revitalize the LDP
at the same time.  Neglecting the day-to-day operation of the LDP to
incorporate would be a mistake.  Before incorporation, we would need
volunteers to handle the recruiting and evaluation of new volunteers,
a clear plan of how to raise and spend money, etc.  So I think that
the volunteer effort needs to be several times the current level
before going ahead with incorporation.
[snip]

> Having dealt with all that, LDP would be a tax-exempt charity in _one_
> country.  Now, do a similar drill with every other country of interest.
> Have fun!

Well, being a charity in that one country would entitle us to list
with Volunteer Match.  There's also the possibility of becoming a
branch of an umbrella organization similar to the way the Debian
distribution is a part of the umbrella corporation: "Software in the
Public Interest".  But I don't think we are quite ready for that
either.

			David Lawyer

David Lawyer a écrit :

> It would also be nice to someday list ourselves on "volunteer match" to
> recruit volunteers nationwide, which we could do if we incorporated.

I think these are two different things.

I tryed to incorporate Volunteers Match, because it was the first task
I have seen some month ago. We could, but need some "referent" to
certify what we are. To be incorporated don't seems an absolute
necesity on this case. However, I don't know for sure if voluteers
match have any interest for us, as we need a very special kind of
volunteers and we have some other way to find some

May be we can make a better "add" on the subject in our home page?

being incorporated in USA could make things more difficult for us in
some countries.

The best way should to have some "sister" organisation (like canonical
for Ubuntu or Novell for openSUSE :-) - may be or may be not...

jdd


-- 
jdd for the Linux Documentation Project
http://wiki.tldp.org
http://www.dodin.net
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1412160445

Quoting David Lawyer ####@####.####

> Well, being a charity in that one country would entitle us to list
> with Volunteer Match.

Yes.  I do salute your ongoing efforts to pursue this promotional
avenue, David.  (I think I've said that before, but it doesn't hurt to
say it again.)

> Even though it would cost a few hundred dollars plus, and take a lot
> of time to incorporate, I think it would be worthwhile if we had
> enough volunteers, not only to do the incorporation but to revitalize
> the LDP at the same time.

Speaking as someone who's an officer of both incorporated and
unincorporated groups, and is reasonably knowledgeable about business
law (at least, for a non-lawyer), I personally just don't see it.  I
suspect (and have seen in discussions with Linux folks elsewhere) that
many folks are, in ignorance of legal realities, attributing sundry
advantages to incorporation that are, in reality, not available from it.
I.e., there are persistent misconceptions on the subject.  But that
is doubtless a separate conversation.  

I'd be glad to participate in that conversation whenever it's timely.

(Again, as a special case, if for some reason one is seeking IRS
501(c)(3) tax-exempt charity recognition within the USA, then
incorporation is a required part of that process, in which case
incorporation's other merits or lack of same become irrelevant.)

Just as an afterthought, if we ever _do_ have a conversation about LDP
applying for IRS 501(c)(3) charity recognition within the USA (and, of
course, incorporating as a prerequisite), I'd absolutely weep with joy
if the other participants were to enter that thread by saying "Hi, I've
just read IRS Publication 557, 'Tax-Exempt Status for Your
Organization'".

People really do need to read, and preferably understood, that bit of
IRS documentation before proposing the idea for any group.
http://www.irs.gov/publications/p557/ 

Just a quick note in case this is ever revisited: it's not strictly
true that you have to incorporate and register in a charity for people
living in those countries to claim deductions.

I know that Canadians can claim donations to American charities on
their returns, for example.  I don't know what the laws and/or
treaties are in other countries but I'm guessing that American
incorporation and possibly European incorporation would give the LDP
sufficient status.

Or we could just make ourselves adjunct to the FSF if we're looking
for sponsors.