discuss: Thread: wiki pages footer

Now that the licence situation have been extensively discussed, it's
time to fix the wiki pages footer.

As is said in the old manifesto (was this copied to the new? it
should), the LDP have no legal existence and so can't hold any copyright.

I think we should have in the footer a link to the manifesto and one
the the default licence (wiki version)

ideas??

thanks
jdd
-- 
http://www.dodin.net
http://valerie.dodin.org
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-eic8MSSfM

Quoting Jean-Daniel Dodin ####@####.####

> As is said in the old manifesto (was this copied to the new? it
> should), the LDP have no legal existence and so can't hold any copyright.

That assertion actually, strictly speaking, bullshit, by the way --
regardless of how frequently it's asserted and how widely it's believed.
Example:  New York Linux User Group (NYLUG) is an unincorporated
association.  It owns the Internet domain nylug.org.  See for yourself:

$ whois nylug.org

[...]
Domain ID:D4618054-LROR
Domain Name:NYLUG.ORG
Created On:16-Dec-1998 05:00:00 UTC
Last Updated On:14-Jun-2008 01:56:03 UTC
Expiration Date:16-Dec-2009 05:00:00 UTC
Sponsoring Registrar:GoDaddy.com, Inc. (R91-LROR)
Status:CLIENT DELETE PROHIBITED
Status:CLIENT RENEW PROHIBITED
Status:CLIENT TRANSFER PROHIBITED
Status:CLIENT UPDATE PROHIBITED
Registrant ID:GODA-040808445
Registrant Name:New York Linux Users Group
Registrant Organization:New York Linux Users Group
Registrant Street1:2124 Broadway, Suite 374
Registrant Street2:
Registrant Street3:
Registrant City:New York
Registrant State/Province:New York
Registrant Postal Code:10023
Registrant Country:US
Registrant Phone:+1.9999999999
Registrant Phone Ext.:
Registrant FAX:
Registrant FAX Ext.:
Registrant ####@####.####

It can sue or be sued, or can own other property -- being in that regard
treated by the courts as a collection of individuals acting together.
That could become awkward, or be a prohibitive obstacle to, say, they
decided to operate a business or apply for USA Federal tax exemption as
a charity non-profit, but it's actually incorrect to claim that an
unincorporated association cannot own property.

(Please don't try to claim that this is impossible because the courts
cannot deterministically decide which individuals comprise the group.
The courts can and do make such decisions, without regard to whether you
think it's deterministically possible:  Courts are not hampered by
computerists' obsessive-compulsive desire for the universe to have clean
boundaries.)

> I think we should have in the footer a link to the manifesto and one
> the the default licence (wiki version)

OK, so far.  The merit of so doing really depends on how it's worded.

I'll try to get back to that, when I have time later today.

Rick Moen a écrit :
> Quoting Jean-Daniel Dodin ####@####.####
> 
>> As is said in the old manifesto (was this copied to the new? it
>> should), the LDP have no legal existence and so can't hold any copyright.
> 
> That assertion actually, strictly speaking, bullshit, by the way --
> regardless of how frequently it's asserted and how widely it's believed.
> Example:  New York Linux User Group (NYLUG) is an unincorporated
> association.  It owns the Internet domain nylug.org.  See for yourself:

don't know :-(. I just read and trust the old manifesto.

but who can speak for the LDP? I had last month to change the owner of
my LUG domain name (I'm the chairman). I had to give a lot of official
papers to the registrar to do so (the old contact had lost passwd and
access to the contact e-mail)

right now tldp is still owned by Guylhem Aznar

I don't feel like having any property on the LDP :-) (and don't want to)

I really don't know what is the situation, here. for example, how
could we take back the tldp.org domain name if ever Guylhem refused to
give it (very unlikely)? If I remember this was the reason why we
couldn't use "ldp.org" (but I'm not sure)

jdd

-- 
jdd for the Linux Documentation Project
http://wiki.tldp.org
http://www.dodin.net

Quoting Jean-Daniel Dodin ####@####.####

> but who can speak for the LDP? 

Nothing wrong with posing that question, too -- but I'd just like to
point out that "Who can speak for the LDP" is a wholly _different_
question from "Can an unincorporated association own property?", 
the question I just now addressed.

The former is an organisational question; the latter is a legal one.
Those two issues are, in fact, not only wholly different but are
actually orthogonal:  Addressing one has zero effect on the other.

> I don't feel like having any property on the LDP :-) (and don't want to)

Please note that I _didn't address_ the question of "Should LDP be
listed as the owner of [anything]".  I merely debunked the widespread
misconception that unincorporated associations cannot own property.
It's demonstrably untrue.  A great deal of time and effort has been 
wasted within LUGs on account of that mistaken belief:  I can tell you a
story about that concerning the Silicon Valley Linux User Group, but
it's somewhat outside the scope of this discussion.

> I really don't know what is the situation, here. for example, how
> could we take back the tldp.org domain name if ever Guylhem refused to
> give it (very unlikely)? 

Sufficiently paranoid groups can resolve that matter through trust
arrangements, with or without incorporation.  (Once again, that was not
a recommendation.)

> If I remember this was the reason why we couldn't use "ldp.org" (but
> I'm not sure)

I believe you're thinking of the linuxdoc.org affair.  Here's Machtelt
Garrels's article that covers that matter:    	
http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/7433

Rick Moen a écrit :

> listed as the owner of [anything]".  I merely debunked the widespread
> misconception that unincorporated associations cannot own property.
> It's demonstrably untrue.

yes. In fact I know.

I don't know for other countries, but in France associations don't
need to be incorporated, but this makes any administrative act very
difficult.

> I believe you're thinking of the linuxdoc.org affair.  Here's Machtelt
> Garrels's article that covers that matter:    	
> http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/7433

very interesting. worth a link from the wiki.

to go back to the web page problem, you mean that we can keep the present

"© The Linux Documentation Project, 1992-2008. Site credits. " is good
for the footer? wouldn't it be usefull though to add links to the
default licence and the manifesto?

thanks
jdd
NB: I just discovered the linux doc project and linux on 1997, joining
the french "CULTe", my LUG, where I met Guylhem Aznar.

-- 
http://www.dodin.net
http://valerie.dodin.org
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-eic8MSSfM

Quoting Jean-Daniel Dodin ####@####.####

> I don't know for other countries, but in France associations don't
> need to be incorporated, but this makes any administrative act very
> difficult.

The advantages and disadvantages can be debated either way; the main
thing is that incorporation sets up a specifically defined (abstract)
entity distinct from the members themselves.  People who act on behalf
of the corporation are legally classed as its agents (i.e., interpreted
under the "law of agency"), and members cannot be pursued in court
individually for more than their ownership interest in the corporate
assets over allegedly wrongful deeds in which they had no _personal_
involvement.  

(This makes less difference than most computerists assume:
If Alice, Bob, Charlie, and Daisy incorporate their club, and later
outsider Zachariah is angry about a deed performed by the club,
Zachariah's attorney will still give him the standard advice of "Sue
_everyone_" -- A., B., C., and D. _plus_ the corporate entity.  The only
difference is that some of the co-defendents may be able to get
dismissed from the case by showing lack of personal involvement in the
deed in question.)

> to go back to the web page problem, you mean that we can keep the present
> "© The Linux Documentation Project, 1992-2008. Site credits. " is good
> for the footer? wouldn't it be usefull though to add links to the
> default licence and the manifesto?

I was going to wait until later (work being currently in the way), when
I could give constructive suggestions on that.  ;->

I'm amused about that footer, now that you point out the present
contents, given that everyone's been going around claiming that
unincorporate associations (such as LDP) cannot own property:  The
footer asserts copyright ownership!

> NB: I just discovered the linux doc project and linux on 1997, joining
> the french "CULTe", my LUG, where I met Guylhem Aznar.

You see, there's a long history of francophones in LDP.  ;->