discuss: Thread: VolunteerMatch, getting a US EIN number, LDP money

VolunteerMatch is the major website for people to go to who want to
volunteer.  A potential volunteer selects a category they would like
to volunteer for (say computers) and a location (say virtual) where
they would like to do their volunteer work.  Since LDP is a "virtual
organization" someone who wants to volunteer to do volunteer work via
the Internet would select "virtual" as a location.  VolunteerMatch is
mentioned in magazines for retired people etc.

One problem.  I can't post any ads for "volunteers wanted" for LDP
since Volunteer match requires an EIN (Employee Identification Number)
issued by the US IRS (Internal Revenue Service) which LDP doesn't
have.  Getting an EIN is free and LDP is eligible to get one as a
non-profit unincorporated organization (I phoned the IRS re this since
the application doesn't make it clear that we are eligible).  More on
this later.

A major problem LDP has with volunteers is that they tend to be busy
people and while they may have time to volunteer for a while, many
don't have much	time in the long run.  So I think that we should try
to get volunteers who have lots of free time: People who are retired,
disabled, housewives (or househusbands), institutionalized (prisons,
mental hospitals), etc.

For example, someone with a background in computers (but not Linux)
retires and wants to volunteer.  Using a volunteer search, he finds
LDP by searching for virtual volunteer opportunities with computers.
Having heard about Linux, but never having used it, he installs Linux
on his Windows PC, learns it and then is able to help out the LDP.
Since he's retired, he has lots of time to spend learning Linux and
helping LDP.  He also uses Linux for other purposes and didn't learn
it just for the purpose of volunteering with LDP.

There are lots of other examples but the main point is that someone
who is searching for a volunteer opportunity should have sufficient
time for it and LDP has something to offer since by writing you can
help many other people and not just a single person.  And one way to
try to find such people is via Volunteer Match: www.volunteermatch.org

For the EIN number, I could apply for it on the Internet and can leave
blank the name of our "principal officer" (per phone call to IRS).
But I would have to show a physical address for LDP for which I could
use my home address.

LDP could then open a savings/bank account with the EIN number.  If we
have more than $5000/year gross income we are supposed to file yearly
tax forms with the IRS.*  Except that if we both incorporate and get
an exemption as a non-profit educational organization (which costs
$700), then we wouldn't need to file yearly tax forms until our income
reaches $20,000/year.  As an exempt corporation we wouldn't need to
pay income taxes no matter what out income.  But I'm not proposing to
incorporate at the present time.  So should I get us an EIN?

*If the income doesn't enter the US, then I would think that it
doesn't count towards the $5000.

Just having an EIN doesn't insure that LDP can open a savings/bank
account since it's up to the financial institution.  For example, they
may require evidence that the person who opens the account is
authorized to do so.  LDP could open a money-market account to get
interest on it's $9,000+ savings but that could be decided after first
getting an EIN number.
			David Lawyer

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On Wed, 14 Mar 2007, David Lawyer wrote:
<snip>
> Just having an EIN doesn't insure that LDP can open a savings/bank
> account since it's up to the financial institution.  For example, they
> may require evidence that the person who opens the account is
> authorized to do so.  LDP could open a money-market account to get
> interest on it's $9,000+ savings but that could be decided after first
> getting an EIN number.

David,

Refering to your posts on the staff list, I can see that you put a lot of
thought in this.  It might be worth a try.  And whatever the outcome,
after what I have read, I don't think getting the EIN number could do us
any damage.  So vote +1 from me.

Tille.

- --
Machtelt Garrels                ####@####.####
Review Coordinator    	 	http://www.tldp.org/authors/

My Penguin, my freedom.         http://tille.xalasys.com

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> On Wed, 14 Mar 2007, David Lawyer wrote:
> <snip>
> > Just having an EIN doesn't insure that LDP can open a savings/bank
> > account since it's up to the financial institution.

My experience with all this is that, should you need
any advice, the person to go to first to help
with the EIN process should be an
accountant rather than a lawyer.  The accountants
know all the tax angles, can give advice regarding
what sort of corporation/partnership/whatever choices
there are, and are cheaper than lawyers.


Karl ####@####.####
Free Software:  "You don't pay back, you pay forward."
                  -- Robert A. Heinlein

Quoting Karl O. Pinc ####@####.####

> My experience with all this is that, should you need any advice, the
> person to go to first to help with the EIN process should be an
> accountant rather than a lawyer.

<hat="former professional tax preparer and staff accountant at CPA firms">

Just to reassure, you won't need that.  The substance of the process is
that IRS says (via its form SS-4):  "Oh, you want an EIN?  Cool.  Who
are you, what's your TIN (taxpayer ID number, which in the common case
is the individual's Social Security Number), what's your address, and is
this in your capacity as a sole-proprietor business owner / partnership
/ corporation?"  As long as applicant doesn't already have an EIN in
that same capacity (which would make the request redundant), IRS just
writes back and says "Here's your EIN.  Have an adequate day."

It's not like you're applying for something valuable and rare.

You _will_ have to decide whether, for Federal record-keeping purposes 
about businesses, LDP is a sole proprietorship (single-person business)
or partnership.  Or you can call 1-800-829-4933 to ask IRS's advice on
that.  (They'll be a little confused about what LDP is.  Bear with
them.)

</hat>

-- 
Cheers,              "Here, sanity ... niiiiiice sanity, come to daddy ... okay,
Rick Moen            that's a good sanity ... {*THWONK!*}  _Got_ the bastard." 
####@####.####                                    --AdB

> Quoting Karl O. Pinc ####@####.####
> 
> > My experience with all this is that, should you need any advice, the
> > person to go to first to help with the EIN process should be an
> > accountant rather than a lawyer.
> 
On Wed, Mar 21, 2007 at 12:44:29PM -0700, Rick Moen wrote:
> <hat="former professional tax preparer and staff accountant at CPA firms">
> 
> Just to reassure, you won't need that.  The substance of the process is
> that IRS says (via its form SS-4):  "Oh, you want an EIN?  Cool.  Who
> are you, what's your TIN (taxpayer ID number, which in the common case
> is the individual's Social Security Number), what's your address, and is
> this in your capacity as a sole-proprietor business owner / partnership
> / corporation?"

There are a lot of other entities listed on SS-4 besides the 3 above.  For
example: estate, national guard, "other non-profit organization" (That's
us, LDP.  I would simply put a check mark for this option. ).  Also, I
leave the "principle officer" blank as we have none (and this is OK per
IRS phone call).

> As long as applicant doesn't already have an EIN in that same
> capacity (which would make the request redundant), IRS just writes
> back and says "Here's your EIN.  Have an adequate day."
> 
> It's not like you're applying for something valuable and rare.

However, by signing my name (under penalty of perjury) that we are in
fact a "nonprofit organization", an outfit like "Volunteer Search"
will believe that we are a "nonprofit organization" and let us recruit
volunteers thru them.

> You _will_ have to decide whether, for Federal record-keeping
> purposes about businesses, LDP is a sole proprietorship
> (single-person business) or partnership.  Or you can call
> 1-800-829-4933 to ask IRS's advice on that.  (They'll be a little
> confused about what LDP is.  Bear with them.)

LDP is simply a (virtual) unincorporated non-profit organization.
"Virtual" means that we exist in cyberspace but IRS has no such
"virtual" category so we have to list a snail-mail address, probably
my home address.  Any mail LDP gets I'll let the list know about.
Since we don't file any reports there isn't any accounting requirement
except to know that our income in the US is under $5,000/yr.

			David Lawyer

Quoting David Lawyer ####@####.####

> There are a lot of other entities listed on SS-4 besides the 3 above.

I was of course simplifying in order to get the basic idea across
without getting bogged down in details of marginal relevance.  The idea,
to repeat in case it was unclear, is:  No, you really, honestly do _not_
need to consult an accountant before filling out an SS-4.  It's just a
form to acquire a reporting number.

> > It's not like you're applying for something valuable and rare.
> 
> However, by signing my name (under penalty of perjury)....

It's common for US Federal and state forms to claim a statement is
being made "under penalty of perjury".  However, the perjury statute
(18 U.S.C. 1621, 28 U.S.C. 1746) actually requires only that sworn
written statements, or sworn statements in court must not be _willfully_ 
and _materially_ inaccurate, and the inaccuracy must be central to the 
matter being reported on (or testified to).

Basically, perjury is applicable to provable deliberate lying to Federal
invesitgators or regulators within centrally important statements.

> [...]that we are in fact a "nonprofit organization", an outfit like
> "Volunteer Search" will believe that we are a "nonprofit organization"
> and let us recruit volunteers thru them.

Good point.

> LDP is simply a (virtual) unincorporated non-profit organization.
> "Virtual" means that we exist in cyberspace but IRS has no such
> "virtual" category so we have to list a snail-mail address, probably
> my home address.

Yes, you would.

Absent actual Federal filings such as employment tax returns, LDP would
not ordinarily expect to hear from the Feds for no better reason than
just getting an EIN, though.  FYI.

On related matters (incorporation, tax-exempt status, insurance,
volunteer liability), by coincidence, I happen to have recently expanded
the discussion in the Linux User Group HOWTO, which coverage may be of
interest:  http://en.tldp.org/HOWTO/User-Group-HOWTO-7.html#ss7.1

-- 
Cheers, "Your program just attempted an illegal instruction.  No worries, mate."
Rick Moen                         -- Australian error messages, #14 in a series
####@####.####

On Wed, Mar 21, 2007 at 06:56:50PM -0700, Rick Moen wrote:
> On related matters (incorporation, tax-exempt status, insurance,
> volunteer liability), by coincidence, I happen to have recently expanded
> the discussion in the Linux User Group HOWTO, which coverage may be of
> interest:  http://en.tldp.org/HOWTO/User-Group-HOWTO-7.html#ss7.1

On the issue of liability, if I use my address in California for LDP's
EIN number and someone were to sue "members" (such as me) of LDP in
a California court, there's a California unincorporated nonprofit
association (that's LDP) tort law here.  Here's the gist of part of it
I found on the Internet:

   November 19, 2004
   To: The Honorable Arnold Schwarzenegger, Governor of California, and
   The Legislature of California

   Under existing law, a member, director, officer, or agent of an
   unincorporated nonprofit association is not liable for a tort of
   the association merely because of that person's status as a member,
   director, officer, or agent.
   [snip]

Some other states in the U.S. have similar laws.  This isn't mentioned
in the User Group HOWTO.  It should be.  There's a uniform law re this
known as the "Uniform Unincorporated Nonprofit Association Act" but
California didn't adopt it, although some other states have.  So if
what is in this HOWTO is correct regarding protection from being sued
if you're a corporation, it looks like about the same protection is
offered in California even if you're not a corporation but are a
non-profit organization (association) like LDP.

			David Lawyer