discuss: Thread: small demo page

On Tue, Sep 13, 2005 at 09:41:03PM +0200, Stein Gjoen wrote:
> 
> There is no conflict in view here, I see the wiki debate as
> a possible means of revitalisation.
> 

Sorry, but debates do not revitalize _anything_. Action does.  It must
be not brilliant or be perfect, but it must be there, and  I'm rather
happy to see jdd _do_ something, not only _talk_ how good would it be to
do this and that.

Once you get started, you'll eventually see how to improve, and, even
more important -- when.

Sorry but I still see more people debating over those damn things and it
tempts me to ask about the date and location where TLDP's funeral will
take place.

> I feel we have to look at our audience and serve them better
> (end users, distribution makes and authors). I doubts we can
> ever say we are finished, continuous improvements is the norm
> these days.

I think the website should be brought up to the current standards for
this kind of sites. The navigation is far from being very clear for 
novices... Just my $0.01.

-- 
X Windows: You'll envy the dead.

On Tue, 13 Sep 2005, Yaroslav Fedevych wrote:

> On Tue, Sep 13, 2005 at 09:41:03PM +0200, Stein Gjoen wrote:
> >
> > There is no conflict in view here, I see the wiki debate as
> > a possible means of revitalisation.
> >
>
> Sorry, but debates do not revitalize _anything_. Action does.  It must
> be not brilliant or be perfect, but it must be there, and  I'm rather
> happy to see jdd _do_ something, not only _talk_ how good would it be to
> do this and that.
>
> Once you get started, you'll eventually see how to improve, and, even
> more important -- when.
>
> Sorry but I still see more people debating over those damn things and it
> tempts me to ask about the date and location where TLDP's funeral will
> take place.
>
> > I feel we have to look at our audience and serve them better
> > (end users, distribution makes and authors). I doubts we can
> > ever say we are finished, continuous improvements is the norm
> > these days.
>
> I think the website should be brought up to the current standards for
> this kind of sites. The navigation is far from being very clear for
> novices... Just my $0.01.

I hate to sound like a sycophant, but I agree with Yaroslav. That said, I
believe that Mr. Kramer made some valid points which should be considered as we
move forward.

In my opinion, think the time to act is now. However flawed the approach, I
believe inaction at this point in time is much more lethal than jdd's proposed
course of action.

There will always be room for corrections, improvements and revisions.

JA

Stein Gjoen wrote:

> I am puzzled. Unless I have been hallucinating I spent hours
> in improving the markup alone. The text used by the Wiki
> was French, now it is English. Was there a reinstallation?

Yes

(for the pêople not here in august)

there was a first trial on my own french wiki, but after 
that I was asked to have a wiki only reserved to tldp. I 
tried to open a sourceforge project to learn siurceforge did 
no more accept wiki's, so I create a hole new tldp 
mediawiki. I advertise it in the discuss list and said that 
I mad provision to install - if asked for - and other wki, 
like twiki, for example.

the tldp wiki is on a tldp account on my own (small and 
instable :-() server at:

http://dodin.org/~tldp/mw/index.php/Main_Page

for the language, note that this is user-configurable. each 
logged user can use the langage of his choice (for the wiki 
part)

but I don't pretend this wiki is _the_ solution for the 
tldp, I don't even know if it can be part of a solution. If 
nobody is interested (or only a very few of us) i may be 
better to put efforts elsewhere.

jdd


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jdd wrote:

> (for the pêople
sorry for all the typos, I'm tired :-(
jdd

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On Tue, 13 Sep 2005, Yaroslav Fedevych wrote:

> I think the website should be brought up to the current standards for
> this kind of sites. The navigation is far from being very clear for
> novices... Just my $0.01.

This is something that Ser started to improve.  But it might be good to
have more input from everybody.  Here is a proposition for the new look:

http://www.tldp.org/log/

It is not ready yet, as you will see soon enough, so keep in mind it is
only an example of where we could go.

Tille.

- --
Machtelt Garrels                ####@####.####
Review Coordinator    	 	http://www.tldp.org/authors/

My Penguin, my freedom.         http://tille.xalasys.com



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Yaroslav Fedevych wrote:

> On Tue, Sep 13, 2005 at 09:41:03PM +0200, Stein Gjoen wrote:
> 
>>There is no conflict in view here, I see the wiki debate as
>>a possible means of revitalisation.
> 
> Sorry, but debates do not revitalize _anything_. Action does.  It must
> be not brilliant or be perfect, but it must be there, and  I'm rather
> happy to see jdd _do_ something, not only _talk_ how good would it be to
> do this and that.


I have acted. I have contributed. I spent hours on JDD's wiki.
Now it is all gone and JDD cannot even see anyone has contributed.
When all these hours I spent were a total waste of effort and my
time I am certainly not going to put in another major job before
we have got to the bottom of what happened.

> Once you get started, you'll eventually see how to improve, and, even
> more important -- when.


Some of us have been there and done that. Now is the time to discuss
how to go on from there. "When" is now.

> Sorry but I still see more people debating over those damn things and it
> tempts me to ask about the date and location where TLDP's funeral will
> take place.


I am not just a talker; I also produce the goods. How about you?
I have created numerous prototypes for various things, put them
up for public viewing and comments. So far not much.

I feel there is just a few of us doing real work, trying to improve
TLDP but since this is not a dictatorship we need feedback. A few
months ago there was a minor tempest in this teacup on the existence
of a Staff list and fears this was some kind of secret conspiracy.
Open discussions are therefore neccessary for the health of the
project and also progress. It is rather indicative that the effort
on describing positions remains unfinished.

>>I feel we have to look at our audience and serve them better
>>(end users, distribution makes and authors). I doubts we can
>>ever say we are finished, continuous improvements is the norm
>>these days.
> 
> I think the website should be brought up to the current standards for
> this kind of sites. The navigation is far from being very clear for 
> novices... Just my $0.01.

I tend not to abuse the exclamation character on my keyboard but I am
getting pretty close this time.


Regards,
    Stein Gjoen

On Wed, 14 Sep 2005, Stein Gjoen wrote:
>
> I have acted. I have contributed. I spent hours on JDD's wiki.
> Now it is all gone and JDD cannot even see anyone has contributed.
> When all these hours I spent were a total waste of effort and my
> time I am certainly not going to put in another major job before
> we have got to the bottom of what happened.

Allow me to apologize for my oversight. I admit I was oblivious to your efforts
to provide a solution to the problem. I would like to hope that it has not been
in vain.

>
> > Once you get started, you'll eventually see how to improve, and, even
> > more important -- when.
>
>
> Some of us have been there and done that. Now is the time to discuss
> how to go on from there. "When" is now.

In light of what you said earlier, I wholeheartedly agree. I am, and will
continue to oppose any attempts to duplicate work.

[snip]

> I am not just a talker; I also produce the goods. How about you?
> I have created numerous prototypes for various things, put them
> up for public viewing and comments. So far not much.

Could you please provide details on how one can view your work? I for one
believe that this would be exceedingly helpful as this project moves forward.
Who knows? In light of the conversations that have been going on for the past
several weeks, your efforts may even be more appealing than when they was first
conceived.

> I feel there is just a few of us doing real work, trying to improve
> TLDP but since this is not a dictatorship we need feedback. A few
> months ago there was a minor tempest in this teacup on the existence
> of a Staff list and fears this was some kind of secret conspiracy.
> Open discussions are therefore neccessary for the health of the
> project and also progress. It is rather indicative that the effort
> on describing positions remains unfinished.

[snip]

> I tend not to abuse the exclamation character on my keyboard but I am
> getting pretty close this time.

I am truly sorry if my ignorant (perhaps inflammatory?) comments added to your
frustration. I do not intend to come across as a blithering idiot. I just want
to ensure that the group is not spinning its wheels, not to mention trying to
re-invent them...

Regards,
JA

Stein Gjoen wrote:

> I have acted. I have contributed. I spent hours on JDD's wiki.
> Now it is all gone and JDD cannot even see anyone has contributed.

please, can you read the list and go and see before 
complaining? none of your work is lost, I only moved it to 
the new place.

it's this new place, who should become "semi-official" that 
received no entries.

> I am not just a talker; I also produce the goods.

why do you think you are under attack? there are many on 
this list. the mails are not directed against you :-).

You have worked, some others also and I know of some that 
don't write but have worked elsewhere for the tldp.

but this makes one, may be two handfull people, not many :-(

and the "semi-official" tldp wiki still did not receive any 
new thing til august 28.

http://dodin.org/~tldp/mw/index.php?title=Special:Recentchanges&days=30

I didn't worry too much during hollidays, because of the 
hollidays :-), but now anybody should be here :-)

jdd


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folajimi wrote:

> On Wed, 14 Sep 2005, Stein Gjoen wrote:
> 
>>I have acted. I have contributed. I spent hours on JDD's wiki.
>>Now it is all gone and JDD cannot even see anyone has contributed.
>>When all these hours I spent were a total waste of effort and my
>>time I am certainly not going to put in another major job before
>>we have got to the bottom of what happened.
> 
> Allow me to apologize for my oversight. I admit I was oblivious to your efforts
> to provide a solution to the problem. I would like to hope that it has not been
> in vain.


Accepted.

>>>Once you get started, you'll eventually see how to improve, and, even
>>>more important -- when.
>>
>>Some of us have been there and done that. Now is the time to discuss
>>how to go on from there. "When" is now.
> 
> In light of what you said earlier, I wholeheartedly agree. I am, and will
> continue to oppose any attempts to duplicate work.
> 
> [snip]
> 
> 
>>I am not just a talker; I also produce the goods. How about you?
>>I have created numerous prototypes for various things, put them
>>up for public viewing and comments. So far not much.
> 
> Could you please provide details on how one can view your work? I for one
> believe that this would be exceedingly helpful as this project moves forward.
> Who knows? In light of the conversations that have been going on for the past
> several weeks, your efforts may even be more appealing than when they was first
> conceived.


My prototypes are available at
	http://www.nyx.net/~sgjoen/tarpl.html
along with list of some updates. I had some weekly news for a
while but my current effort is requiring more work tan expected
so there is nothing visible yet.

>>I feel there is just a few of us doing real work, trying to improve
>>TLDP but since this is not a dictatorship we need feedback. A few
>>months ago there was a minor tempest in this teacup on the existence
>>of a Staff list and fears this was some kind of secret conspiracy.
>>Open discussions are therefore neccessary for the health of the
>>project and also progress. It is rather indicative that the effort
>>on describing positions remains unfinished.
> 
> [snip]
> 
>>I tend not to abuse the exclamation character on my keyboard but I am
>>getting pretty close this time.
> 
> I am truly sorry if my ignorant (perhaps inflammatory?) comments added to your
> frustration. I do not intend to come across as a blithering idiot. I just want
> to ensure that the group is not spinning its wheels, not to mention trying to
> re-invent them...

This highlights the need for communication and frequent updates; I hope
the TLDP Weekly News will reappear soon.

Regards,
    Stein Gjoen

Stein Gjoen wrote:

> My prototypes are available at
>     http://www.nyx.net/~sgjoen/tarpl.html

a very smart page. Is it linked from the tldp site?

may I link it from the tldp wiki?

thanks
jdd



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