discuss: Thread: TLDP wiki (was Re: status report author checkup)

So I've heard mediawiki and twiki mentioned...and I also
looked thru http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WikiEngines and
http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?TopTenWikiEngines for a few
suggestions.

I'm open to using whatever implementation best fits the LDP's
needs. I think a wiki that has some content mgmt features
built-in would be one to strongly consider.

It sounds like jdd and Randy might be able to assist in getting
this going - are there others (Martin)?

I'm looking for volunteers/team that might:

- evaluate and recommend the best wiki technology for our/TLDP needs
- assist in the installation (answer questions I might have
  along the way, at the very least)
- assist in the overall design/layout
- assist in the loading of the database
- eventually we will probably need a team to review and monitor(?)
- anything else?

I'm quite comfortable with content mgmt systems, but definitely
a novice with respect to wikis, so I'm looking for guidance
(on behalf of the LDP, of course).

thanks,
Greg / LDP

On Sat, 13 Aug 2005 ####@####.#### wrote:

> It sounds like jdd and Randy might be able to assist in getting
> this going - are there others (Martin)?

Yes -- you can count me in.


> - evaluate and recommend the best wiki technology for our/TLDP needs

I have no particular favourite.
however, I would suggest one that allows user login, in case we ever need 
it for closed-editing group operation.


> - assist in the installation (answer questions I might have
>  along the way, at the very least)

Usually just load and install.  (zope is a whole other ball game; and I 
would suggest just a tad too complex for what we're looking at here.)


> - assist in the overall design/layout

Wikis tend to be hierarchically rigid -- but then so do HOWTOs.
Creative use of hyperlinks is advised.


> - assist in the loading of the database

As long as we have remote access permissions to the host server.


> - eventually we will probably need a team to review and monitor(?)

Documents should be largely self-maintaining, overall.


> - anything else?

It'll show up.  (E.g. what to do in the case of mixed British/US spelling 
conventions, not to mention mid-Atlantic grammar and punctuation.  Old 
habits die hard, and I'm steeped in UK tradition.  I go by the handbook 
for readers at the Oxford University Press -- I've never even seen a copy 
of the Chicago whatsit everyone's always quoting.  [Or even citing.])

We've long needed a defined house-style -- maybe that's one of the things 
that will distill out of collaborative wiki-work.

Cheers,
-- 
Martin Wheeler   -   StarTEXT / AVALONIX - Glastonbury - BA6 9PH - England
####@####.####                http://www.startext.co.uk/mwheeler/
GPG pub key : 01269BEB  6CAD BFFB DB11 653E B1B7 C62B  AC93 0ED8 0126 9BEB
       - Share your knowledge. It's a way of achieving immortality. -

There already is a tldp wiki in operation and there are some recent
modifications:  
http://tldp.sys-techs.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
Main Page - TLDPwiki</a>

The main page contains hundreds of links to porn.  Don't know if they
actually go to porn since I'm using lynx with no images.  When I
clicked on help, there were links to several hundred pharmacies, all
of which seem to be broken.  I just gave up since I couldn't find any
help on how to use the site.  And most of LDP's HOWTOs are there, but
it's not clear how to modify them, although it's claimed that some have
been modified.

Would a wiki at ibiblio get to look like this?.  Should someone email
the guy who corresponded with this list and then created this site?
Perhaps he's changed his mind about the usefulness of a wiki for tldp.
Or perhaps he just didn't set it up right or publicize it enough.

			David Lawyer

David Lawyer wrote:
> There already is a tldp wiki in operation and there are some recent
> modifications:  
> http://tldp.sys-techs.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
> Main Page - TLDPwiki</a>
> 
> The main page contains hundreds of links to porn.

no more :-)

of course, tha main page should be locked

NB: the "tldp" skin used is buggy, login and choose the 
default monobook one

seems to have been abandonned

   Don't know if they
> actually go to porn since I'm using lynx with no images.  When I
> clicked on help, there were links to several hundred pharmacies, all
> of which seem to be broken.  I just gave up since I couldn't find any
> help on how to use the site.  And most of LDP's HOWTOs are there, but
> it's not clear how to modify them, although it's claimed that some have
> been modified.
> 
> Would a wiki at ibiblio get to look like this?.  Should someone email
> the guy who corresponded with this list and then created this site?
> Perhaps he's changed his mind about the usefulness of a wiki for tldp.
> Or perhaps he just didn't set it up right or publicize it enough.
> 
> 			David Lawyer
> 
> ______________________
> http://lists.tldp.org/
> 
> 


-- 
pour m'écrire, aller sur:
http://www.dodin.net
http://valerie.dodin.net
http://arvamip.free.fr

looks like I hitted the send button too fast :-(

>> help on how to use the site.  And most of LDP's HOWTOs are there, but
>> it's not clear how to modify them, although it's claimed that some have
>> been modified.

very few, in fact. Going to the "history" of the main page, 
this went from the beginning, I restored the most ancient 
page ginving link to the howto's.

>>
>> Would a wiki at ibiblio get to look like this?.  Should someone email
>> the guy who corresponded with this list and then created this site?
>> Perhaps he's changed his mind about the usefulness of a wiki for tldp.
>> Or perhaps he just didn't set it up right or publicize it enough.

did he ask for autorisation? I never heard about it.

see other post
jdd


-- 
pour m'écrire, aller sur:
http://www.dodin.net
http://valerie.dodin.net
http://arvamip.free.fr

Martin Wheeler wrote:

> I have no particular favourite.
> however, I would suggest one that allows user login,

all that I know do

> It'll show up.  (E.g. what to do in the case of mixed British/US 
> spelling conventions, not to mention mid-Atlantic grammar and 
> punctuation.  Old habits die hard, and I'm steeped in UK tradition.  I 
> go by the handbook for readers at the Oxford University Press -- I've 
> never even seen a copy of the Chicago whatsit everyone's always 
> quoting.  [Or even citing.])

as long as I know, spell checking is allowed as lon as a 
spell checker is installed on the server. It make red the 
probably wrong words, only on an editing window.

jdd


-- 
pour m'écrire, aller sur:
http://www.dodin.net
http://valerie.dodin.net
http://arvamip.free.fr

On Saturday 13 August 2005 06:12 pm, Martin Wheeler wrote:
> On Sat, 13 Aug 2005 ####@####.#### wrote:
> > It sounds like jdd and Randy might be able to assist in getting
> > this going - are there others (Martin)?
>
> Yes -- you can count me in.

I'm willing to try to help as well, although I'm (currently) more in the mode 
of tell me what you want and I'll try to set it up as a prototype in TWiki 
(probably on WikiLearn) than let's do a study.  (Although, really, doing a 
prototype is a form / part of a study, so ...)
>
> > - evaluate and recommend the best wiki technology for our/TLDP needs
>
> I have no particular favourite.
> however, I would suggest one that allows user login, in case we ever need
> it for closed-editing group operation.

Re: logins--TWiki supports quite a few options here, both with and without 
cookies (without cookies was the original TWiki intent to minimize browser 
requirements, cookies might require a plugin).  In addition to logins, there 
is an extensive system of permissions that allow you to allow/prevent editing 
(and viewing, to some extent) of specific pages by individuals or groups.  
(The limitations on viewing had some loopholes, iirc, a (TWiki) search will 
(still?) show results from an otherwise non-readable page.  Slightly OT, if 
we set up any such security, we will need to consider disabling the guest 
account (which I think is a good idea anyway).  My preference / suggestion is 
that people be required to register under a "real" name in order to edit.

More later.

In general:

I spent a fair amount of time evaluating wikis about 5 years ago and concluded 
(at the time) that TWiki was most likely to satisfy my anticipated needs 
(partly because it had/has an active community of developers).  I'm generally 
satisfied, but TWiki hasn't necessarily fully kept pace with the development 
and direction of other wikis that I've come across.  (Recently, things look 
more promising again.)

About 3 months ago I had occasion to fool with MediaWiki and liked some of the 
features I saw, but didn't try to determine if it had all the features I've 
grown to expect from TWiki.  (The features I liked included the automatic 
creation/existence of a comment page for each page of "real content" (which 
could be done manually in TWiki), and the feature which allowed editing 
portions of a page (rather than all of a potentially long page)--I've 
recently seen one similar example on TWiki, so that might now be an available 
feature.)

(I should point out that the only time I installed a TWiki, it was a PITA 
(partly, but not entirely, because I was a newbie to Linux (but making a 
switch from Windows to Linux, so my desire was to install it in Linux))--I 
understand that, at that time, at least, installing on Windows might have 
been even more difficult as there was no blazed path.  Quite a few things 
have changed in the TWiki system since then (especially the "templates", so 
there are quite a few things I'd have to relearn on a new install.)

(Instiki has a beautiful "word like" diff facility (i.e., displaying additions 
in bold and deletions in strikethrough within (for example) a single 
paragraph), but has so many other problematic features (first of all related 
to its storage, then to performance) that I would not recommend it.)

Anyway, all of the above is by way of saying that, at this point in time, I'd 
have to describe myself as a TWiki bigot, and could try to show how'd I'd 
implement any particular desired "feature" using TWiki.  In that sense, it 
might be nice to have a few other "bigots" championing their own favorite 
wiki and trying to show how desired features might be implemented in their 
choice of wiki.

> > - assist in the installation (answer questions I might have
> >  along the way, at the very least)
>
> Usually just load and install.  (zope is a whole other ball game; and I
> would suggest just a tad too complex for what we're looking at here.)

Zope was one of the ones I didn't get a good look at five years ago, partly 
because I couldn't get a good handle on it.  

> > - assist in the overall design/layout
>
> Wikis tend to be hierarchically rigid -- but then so do HOWTOs.
> Creative use of hyperlinks is advised.

"Hierarchically rigid"--not sure what is meant here, but I would point out 
that TWiki was (and still is, AFAIK), capable of being organized into webs 
(think directories or folders, but don't use those words in front of a TWiki 
developer ;-) and subwebs (like a hierarchy of directories or folders).  Not 
sure the subweb feature is particularly well supported (it was sort of a 
feature that existed because it was not "engineered out"--there seems to be 
renewed interest in supporting it recently).

> > - assist in the loading of the database
>
> As long as we have remote access permissions to the host server.
>
> > - eventually we will probably need a team to review and monitor(?)
>
> Documents should be largely self-maintaining, overall.
>
> > - anything else?
>
> It'll show up.  (E.g. what to do in the case of mixed British/US spelling
> conventions, not to mention mid-Atlantic grammar and punctuation.  Old
> habits die hard, and I'm steeped in UK tradition.  I go by the handbook
> for readers at the Oxford University Press -- I've never even seen a copy
> of the Chicago whatsit everyone's always quoting.  [Or even citing.])

Always an interesting situation!  My first thought is we should handle these 
issues by whatever guidelines are used by tldp in other areas.  (Do you want 
the wiki to be translatable into other languages?  Not sure how well TWiki 
handles i18n / l18n, although there was an effort to address this a few years 
ago).  In any case, having a few variations of the spelling of color, for 
example, will not be the worst spelling problem we will see on the wiki.

Randy Kramer

> We've long needed a defined house-style -- maybe that's one of the things
> that will distill out of collaborative wiki-work.