discuss: Thread: why the bible translation howto is inappropriate for LDP

Hi

LDP is entirely within its right to tell a Author that
his document will not accepted by the LDP. This is not
in anyway relevant to the importance of the document
and whether it is influential or appealing to others.
The author is completely free to host it elsewhere and
let others read it.

Now that we have made this point clear let me look at
what the howto is trying to do

1)Some software in non cross platform and will run
only on Window
2)This particular software is meant to translate the
bible
3)The author is trying to document the process of
running the software in vmware and getting this
translated using Linux possibly using some of the
Linux tools( the extend to which this is done is not
clear at this point)

I have the following objections

1)The software itself does not natively work on Linux.
If you are document vmware do it in a vmware howto.

2)The focus of the howto is on translating the bible
which by itself is non technical. 

3)Such a document would probably be limited in use. It
would probably be only useful to others who might want
to translate the bible in Linux. It is according to
the Author himself non generic and will not apply to
translation of generic content. If it does then it
should go into a translation howto. 

(I am not sure why a  bible would be very different in
the process of  translation from other content.)
4)I think we are *much* better if we reject any
documents related to religion, sexism and such thing
keep LDP documents technical in nature with few if any
exceptions. example) linux marketing howto 


regards
Rahul






________________________________________________________________________
Yahoo! India Matrimony: Find your partner online. http://yahoo.shaadi.com/india-matrimony/

At 20:00 5/21/2004, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>LDP is entirely within its right to tell a Author that
>his document will not accepted by the LDP.

Of course. I'm sure we also agree that the inclusive nature of the 
principles and community on which LDP is based mean that any such rejection 
would have to be based on solid, clear, objective grounds and not the 
opinions or beliefs of any given subset of us. I specifically mean to leave 
the door open for rejection of works that we collectively consider are 
harmful to the public good. A document detailing Hitler's diary and 
advocating his views would, IMHO, be one such case.

>1)Some software in non cross platform and will run
>only on Window

Teus is trying to promote the writing of similar software for Linux which 
will also allow an increased migration of users from Windows to Linux.

>2)This particular software is meant to translate the
>bible

Who cares? Why is it your business (or anyone else's) what his task is? If 
I use Windows software that drives a robot arm to scratch me in odd places, 
and I write a HOWTO on successfully using this with Linux, and you find my 
scratching objectionable, will you disapprove of that HOWTO as well? What 
the software does (as long as it's not *harmful* to the public good, yadda, 
yadda, yadda) is IRRELEVANT.

>3)The author is trying to document the process of
>running the software in vmware and getting this
>translated using Linux possibly using some of the
>Linux tools( the extend to which this is done is not
>clear at this point)

The author is attempting to help those people who perform this task move 
successfully to Linux and away from Windows. So he uses VMware... so what? 
So do thousands of others, and as we've argued before this is not the 
"Exclusively Open Source" DP or else we wouldn't have documents about 
Sybase, Oracle, MS SQL Server, DB2, and StarOffice in there. Enough 
proprietary, closed, expensive apps for you?

Besides, he can make version 2 of his HOWTO use WINE. <grin>

>1)The software itself does not natively work on Linux.
>If you are document vmware do it in a vmware howto.

I've disagreed with you before on this, and I'll do it again. Users who 
want to move to Linux and who need a certain application are entitled to 
write/read/find documentation on how to use that app. See the EOS-DP remark 
above. You can't conquer the world all at once... get people to move to 
Linux, get them productive and happy, and then remove obstacles one by one. 
Starting with VMware can proceed to moving to WINE. Starting with Windows 
tools ported to Linux later leads to the writing of Linux software.

This objection is spurious, even though I realize you mean it sincerely. If 
this is such a problem, how the hell do you account for the "Windows 
Newsreaders under Linux HOWTO" [1]? And don't give me "it uses Wine instead 
of VMware" since I highly doubt you're going to base your entire argument 
on that.

[1] 
http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/Linux/docs/HOWTO/other-formats/html_single/Windows-Newsreaders-under-Linux-HOWTO.html

There's even stuff on Non-Free *hardware* like the "Linksys Blue Box Router 
HOWTO" [2]:

[2] 
http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/Linux/docs/HOWTO/other-formats/html_single/Linksys-Blue-Box-Router-HOWTO.html

I don't object to any of this stuff, but I don't see how you're OK with one 
and not the other. Why is there no "tell Eric Raymond to host this stuff on 
Linksys's site" outcry?

>2)The focus of the howto is on translating the bible
>which by itself is non technical.

No! Again you go back to the material with which he works. The Bible is 
irrelevant.

The focus of the document is to help people who use software X, available 
only for Windows, move to Linux. The author has further stated the 
objective (before the argument began) to incite the further writing of 
better software and tools natively in Linux to perform his favorite task. 
This *is* the kind of thing LDP helps people do. And just like a 
Dilbert-Translation-HOWTO, the content he is translating is not relevant as 
long as it's not "harmful to the public good."

For Pete's sake, go read the "Coffee HOWTO" and the "Lego HOWTO"! Both of them

>3)Such a document would probably be limited in use. It
>would probably be only useful to others who might want
>to translate the bible in Linux.

Of course the Belarusian HOWTO has a massive audience, right? As does the 
Esperanto HOWTO? Why do you care that a document would be limited in use? 
Bluntly, I think you're looking for reasons to object, and that your actual 
objections are not at all technical. But since you objected that the HOWTO 
is not technical, you are searching for technical objections. Baloney.

Besides. Um... I don't mean any insult, but saying that a "Translating the 
Bible in Linux HOWTO" is only useful to those who want to translate the 
Bible in Linux is not only a very foolish thing to say, but also hardly the 
base for a serious objection. LDP is here *precisely* for people who want 
to do things with Linux that today they can only do with Windows.

>  It is according to
>the Author himself non generic and will not apply to
>translation of generic content. If it does then it
>should go into a translation howto.

Oh, I see. Non-generic is now a Bad Thing. So I'm sure we'll be removing 
the "Installing GNU/Linux on the IBM RS/6000 43P model 7248 HOWTO" [1] and 
the "The Elite's K7s5a mainboard HOWTO", right? Two of the least-generic 
pieces of work *I've* ever seen:

[1] 
http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/Linux/docs/HOWTO/other-formats/html_single/IBM7248-HOWTO.html
[2] 
http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/Linux/docs/HOWTO/other-formats/html_single/K7s5a-HOWTO.html

>(I am not sure why a  bible would be very different in
>the process of  translation from other content.)

Well, the author has already stated that it's very different. So if you're 
ignorant on the subject...

         a) why not let the author educate you a little?
         b) what are you objecting to?

>4)I think we are *much* better if we reject any
>documents related to religion, sexism and such thing
>keep LDP documents technical in nature with few if any
>exceptions. example) linux marketing howto

Putting religion and sexism in the same breath is hardly what I would call 
an unbiased comparison! And if you want few exceptions, get rid of lots of 
other documents since there are several out there which are not very 
technical in nature. Ecology HOWTO is a nice one, but hardly too technical. 
Advocacy HOWTO, Encouraging Women in Linux HOWTO, Linux Commercial HOWTO... 
I can go on, but I hope my point is obvious.

I can't resist mentioning both the Coffee HOWTO and the Lego HOWTO as some 
of my favorites. :-)

I do not see *any* validity in any of the objections you have brought up.

Cheers,


-- 
Rodolfo J. Paiz
####@####.####
http://www.simpaticus.com

On Fri, May 21, 2004 at 09:13:17PM -0600, Rodolfo J. Paiz wrote:
> I can't resist mentioning both the Coffee HOWTO and the Lego HOWTO as some 
> of my favorites. :-)

An author of the Coffee once told me they would change the name.  But I
guess they never did.  We rejected the Tea HOWTO.  It's really on the
topic as to how to turn on an electric switch using Linux.

As for the Bible, it is an important document of ancient history and
mythology.  The problem is that it's not being translated primarily so
that scholars and others can study the history and mythological aspects
of it.  Instead, it is being translated mainly for the purpose of
proselytizing and claiming that this is the absolute word of God.
And parts the Bible have been used to justify all kinds of wrongdoing
such as slavery.  In Leviticus 20: 13 it says: If a man lies with a male
as with a woman, both of them shall be put to death ...

			David Lawyer

At 22:52 5/21/2004, David Lawyer wrote:
>An author of the Coffee once told me they would change the name.  But I
>guess they never did.  We rejected the Tea HOWTO.  It's really on the
>topic as to how to turn on an electric switch using Linux.

Yes, I've read it. I still love not just the concept but also the approach. 
I have no objection to the name!

>As for the Bible, it is an important document of ancient history and
>mythology.  The problem is that it's not being translated primarily so
>that scholars and others can study the history and mythological aspects
>of it.  Instead, it is being translated mainly for the purpose of
>proselytizing and claiming that this is the absolute word of God.

I have neither made nor read any statement in this conversation to indicate 
*why* Teus has undertaken to translate the Bible. I do not think it fair to 
assume what his intentions are or to judge either him or his work based on 
those assumptions.

>And parts the Bible have been used to justify all kinds of wrongdoing
>such as slavery.  In Leviticus 20: 13 it says: If a man lies with a male
>as with a woman, both of them shall be put to death ...

All sorts of atrocities have been committed by all sorts of people in the 
name of all sorts of causes. I hope we don't get sidetracked by *that* 
argument, so I shall suggest only that we should not be judging the Bible 
in this particular thread. You're welcome to do so... I just don't think 
that's what this particular discussion is about. I'll even be happy to 
discuss/argue the Bible with you on this very same mailing list, OK? Let's 
just start another thread for that and keep this one focused on the 
proposed HOWTO.

For the record, I am in strong disagreement with anyone who proselytizes 
*any* religion. Everyone should freely choose their personal beliefs, 
whatever those might be, and any attempt to influence those beliefs is, to 
me, very wrong. Also for the record, I am not a very "religious" person but 
I *have* read and studied the Bible, Koran, Talmud, and several other major 
religious and/or philosophical works out of personal interest. I have no 
major objections to any of them, despite the fact that some of them contain 
(as David referenced above) some things that may have been acceptable 2,000 
years ago but which I would certainly not tolerate today.

However, I don't think his HOWTO is about the Bible; it's about how to help 
a small (?) community of people who perform one task on Windows to be able 
to perform that one task on Linux as best they can, and also to promote the 
writing of more software in Linux to perform that one task. As such, I do 
see it as a document about Linux and hence appropriate for the LDP. I don't 
think we should look at his document as a religious dissertation.

Allow me to provide a constructive suggestion: I think it would be fair and 
reasonable to wait until Teus actually writes his HOWTO, since at this 
point we're all arguing pure theory here. Then we can more closely evaluate 
its level of technical or religious content, and we can have a more focused 
conversation on whether or not it's appropriate for LDP. How's that?

Cheers,


-- 
Rodolfo J. Paiz
####@####.####
http://www.simpaticus.com

Hi,

I think the real question you should be asking is what does the howto do.

Does he explain ways of translating the bible using tools on a gnu/linux 
based operating system? (a).

Or (b) is he trying to use this howto to express his own political views of 
the bible?

I think (a) is just fine, (b) is a different story.

Although maybe you (as in everyone) should wait till you see some kind of 
draft....

Regards,
Gareth


>From: David Lawyer ####@####.####
>To: "Rodolfo J. Paiz" ####@####.####
>CC: Rahul Sundaram ####@####.#### ####@####.####
>Subject: Re: why the bible translation howto is inappropriate for LDP
>Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 21:52:03 -0700
>
>On Fri, May 21, 2004 at 09:13:17PM -0600, Rodolfo J. Paiz wrote:
> > I can't resist mentioning both the Coffee HOWTO and the Lego HOWTO as 
>some
> > of my favorites. :-)
>
>An author of the Coffee once told me they would change the name.  But I
>guess they never did.  We rejected the Tea HOWTO.  It's really on the
>topic as to how to turn on an electric switch using Linux.
>
>As for the Bible, it is an important document of ancient history and
>mythology.  The problem is that it's not being translated primarily so
>that scholars and others can study the history and mythological aspects
>of it.  Instead, it is being translated mainly for the purpose of
>proselytizing and claiming that this is the absolute word of God.
>And parts the Bible have been used to justify all kinds of wrongdoing
>such as slavery.  In Leviticus 20: 13 it says: If a man lies with a male
>as with a woman, both of them shall be put to death ...
>
>			David Lawyer
>
>______________________
>http://lists.tldp.org/
>

_________________________________________________________________
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Incoming from David Lawyer:
> 
> of it.  Instead, it is being translated mainly for the purpose of
> proselytizing and claiming that this is the absolute word of God.
> And parts the Bible have been used to justify all kinds of wrongdoing
> such as slavery.  In Leviticus 20: 13 it says: If a man lies with a male
> as with a woman, both of them shall be put to death ...

And publicizing this is the best way to fight these hateful aspects.
Give them all the rope they can swallow, and hope they choke on it.


-- 
Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
(*)               http://www.spots.ab.ca/~keeling 
- -

Hi

> >2)This particular software is meant to translate
> the
> >bible
> 
> Who cares? Why is it your business (or anyone
> else's) what his task is? If 
> I use Windows software that drives a robot arm to
> scratch me in odd places, 
> and I write a HOWTO on successfully using this with
> Linux, and you find my 
> scratching objectionable, will you disapprove of
> that HOWTO as well? What 
> the software does (as long as it's not *harmful* to
> the public good, yadda, 
> yadda, yadda) is IRRELEVANT.

I think the content is important. If its something
obscure like scratching I would still object to it
being part of tldp. Someone should do a technical and
language review and do the work related to cvs and
formats conversions including storage space. I dont
want it to be misused for  a scratching howto.


> >2)The focus of the howto is on translating the
> bible
> >which by itself is non technical.
> 
> No! Again you go back to the material with which he
> works. The Bible is 
> irrelevant.

The bible is relevant because the author claims that
it is different from translating other material. I
want to know why.

> Bluntly, I think you're looking for reasons to
> object, and that your actual 
> objections are not at all technical.

Oh. what else could it be then.


> >  It is according to
> >the Author himself non generic and will not apply
> to
> >translation of generic content. If it does then it
> >should go into a translation howto.
> 
> Oh, I see. Non-generic is now a Bad Thing. 

I dont think i said non generic is a bad thing. i said
i fail to see why this couldnt be made as something
generic. very different things.

> 
>          a) why not let the author educate you a
> little?


Sure. i welcome his comments on list

>          b) what are you objecting to?

see above.

> 
> >4)I think we are *much* better if we reject any
> >documents related to religion, sexism and such
> thing
> >keep LDP documents technical in nature with few if
> any
> >exceptions. example) linux marketing howto
> 
> 

i specifically said linux marketing howto or such
stuff is still relevant even if its technical.

regards
Rahul



________________________________________________________________________
Yahoo! India Matrimony: Find your partner online. http://yahoo.shaadi.com/india-matrimony/

Rodolfo J. Paiz wrote:
> At 20:00 5/21/2004, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> 
>> LDP is entirely within its right to tell a Author that
>> his document will not accepted by the LDP.
> 

snippage


> I can't resist mentioning both the Coffee HOWTO and the Lego HOWTO as 
> some of my favorites. :-)
> 
> I do not see *any* validity in any of the objections you have brought up.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> 

I woud say that "How to Translate Religious Documents in Linux"  Ia 
acceptable with reservations but why not "Howto Translate Documents 
using Open Source Software" should suffice would probably be acceptable 
to everyone.



-- 
Michael H. Collins  Admiral, Penguinista Navy

http://linuxlink.com

/"\    	ASCII Ribbon Campaign
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  x     	No Word docs in email
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"If you are going through hell, keep going."
  - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

Incoming from Michael H. Collins:
> 
> I woud say that "How to Translate Religious Documents in Linux"  Is 
> acceptable with reservations but why not "Howto Translate Documents 
> using Open Source Software" should suffice would probably be acceptable 

This could be generalized even more.  _Whatever_ can't now be done
natively in Linux (is there anything?) may be possible via some
combination of vmware, crossover, wine, ... potentially/ideally leading
toward the development of native Linux apps.

However, I consider this whole issue over.  Teus, damn the torpedos,
full speed ahead!  :-)


-- 
Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
(*)               http://www.spots.ab.ca/~keeling 
- -

On Sun, 23 May 2004, s. keeling wrote:

>   _Whatever_ can't now be done
> natively in Linux (is there anything?)

Yes.  Manipulation of Ventura Publisher documents for starters.
Scribus is OK-ish, but ....

> may be possible via some
> combination of vmware, crossover, wine,

Ever tried running something like Ventura, processing a huge document,
under *any* sort of emulation under Linux?

> ... potentially/ideally leading
> toward the development of native Linux apps.

If I had the coding smarts, I'd start on it myself.  Unfortunately, I
write documentation, not code.


> Teus, damn the torpedos,
> full speed ahead!  :-)

Heartily seconded.
-- 
Martin Wheeler   -   StarTEXT / AVALONIX - Glastonbury - BA6 9PH - England
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