discuss: Thread: Docbook, Xml, Jade etc.

> > > This brings me to a idea:
> > > What about creating a rpm and deb package for the tools?

Deb packages...
apt-get install docbook-xml docbook-xsl xsltproc

And you're done :p

Morgon
-- 
"Man is the only creature capable of hating itself" -- Governor of Japan 
in The End of Evangelion

On Tue, Jul 29, 2003 at 04:15:25PM +0000, Chris Karakas wrote:
> In 20 years from now, when nobody will be using HTML
I don't think so.  Someone might have predicted years ago that HTML
would replace plain text but it hasn't.
> when Adobe will be bankrupt (and with it the PDF and PS formats will
> be defunct), when "Word 2023" will tell you "Sorry, this RTF format is
> too old, I can't read it" - then I will ask you to print only those
> paragraphs of your document that contain a citation of the 10th
> bibliographic entry of your bibliography. With the "semantic Web"
> being a reality by then, this will be trivial to do with the SGML/XML
> version of your document. But, since "everyone reads HOWTO's in html
> anyway", you will have written it in HTML, a presentational markup of
> the last century, a markup unable to tell if a "10" refers to the font
> size or the 10th item of a list, and you will be unable to answer my
> (and "everyone's" by that time) simple query which I will have entered
> in a search engine.

Finding the places in a doc which cite a certain bibliographic entry is
easy, provided that the author has assigned that reference a unique id
(in LinuxDoc or DocBook).  For example I might use the id="pins_".  HTML
will use the same id but call it NAME="pins_".  Then in the vi editor,
you put the cursor on pins_, type *, and it finds a bibliographic entry
that is labeled pins_.  grep can do something similar.  So what you
propose for 2023 is already here today.  And it doen't require DocBook.

Even if one used the id="10" one could still search for it since other
10s will not have id (or NAME in HTML) in front of them.  This requires
searching source which browsers can do.

> This may not be important to you, as it is currently not important to
> the authors of many millions HTML pages - but it is important to TLDP
> which, as an institution, is concerned about longevity of the
> documents it invests so much effort to publish.
> 
Just the opposite (sort of) is true.  Our old documents are mostly
obsolete and we are concerned about them not being updated.

> By the way, by far not "everyone" reads HOWTOs (or whatever for that
> matter) in HTML. I am one of the few that read *all* documents online,
> on the screen, and (consequently) I "read HOWTOS in HTML". Me and a
> few others (who I still have to meet) are not everyone: the vast
> majority of the people I know prefer to *print* the document and then
> really read it (as opposed to just skim it).

This is a big waste of paper.  I think that most people mostly read
stuff on their PC screens, either offline or online.

Regarding the sematic web.  I don't think that the tags contribute all
that much to sematic understanding.

			David Lawyer

On Tue, 29 Jul 2003, Morgon Kanter wrote:
> > > > This brings me to a idea:
> > > > What about creating a rpm and deb package for the tools?
> 
> Deb packages...
> apt-get install docbook-xml docbook-xsl xsltproc
> 
> And you're done :p

Might there be missing one of the following?

wolfgang@w:>~<:>dpkg --get-selections |grep ldp      
ldp-docbook-dsssl                               install
ldp-docbook-xsl                                 install

I don't know for sure, I installed this and that and finally everything was
working...

wolfgang

This one time, at band camp, Wolfgang Fuschlberger ####@####.#### wrote:
> On Tue, 29 Jul 2003, Morgon Kanter wrote:
> > > > > This brings me to a idea:
> > > > > What about creating a rpm and deb package for the tools?
> > 
> > Deb packages...
> > apt-get install docbook-xml docbook-xsl xsltproc
> > 
> > And you're done :p
> 
> Might there be missing one of the following?
> 
> wolfgang@w:>~<:>dpkg --get-selections |grep ldp      
> ldp-docbook-dsssl                               install
> ldp-docbook-xsl                                 install

I _knew_ I was forgetting something :p
You don't need them though, they only make slight changes to the 
regular stylesheets (if it looks bad in the regular stylesheets, it'll 
look bad in those too :p).

Morgon
-- 
"Man is the only creature capable of hating itself" -- Governor of Japan 
in The End of Evangelion

On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 21:39:16 -0700
David Lawyer ####@####.#### wrote:

> www.ibiblio.org/pub/linux/docs/HOWTO/mini/Howtos-with-LinuxDoc. 
> 
> I think there should be a link to it on p.1 of the author guide.


mmmm   only half of 808 there



Owen

-- 

 : > www.ibiblio.org/pub/linux/docs/HOWTO/mini/Howtos-with-LinuxDoc.
 : > I think there should be a link to it on p.1 of the author guide.
 :
 : mmmm   only half of 808 there

That's strange.  I got twice 202.

-Martin

On Wed, Jul 30, 2003 at 04:37:04PM +1000, Owen wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 21:39:16 -0700
> David Lawyer ####@####.#### wrote:
> 

> > www.ibiblio.org/pub/linux/docs/HOWTO/mini/Howtos-with-LinuxDoc. 
> > 
> > I think there should be a link to it on p.1 of the author guide.
> 
> 
> mmmm   only half of 808 there

Sorry, the minis have been merged and I gave the old url.
Here's the new url:

http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/Linux/docs/HOWTO/other-formats/html_single/Howtos-with-LinuxDoc.html 
			David Lawyer

Just some tangential food for thought...

David Lawyer wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 29, 2003 at 04:15:25PM +0000, Chris Karakas wrote:
> 
>>In 20 years from now, when nobody will be using HTML
>>
> I don't think so.  Someone might have predicted years ago that HTML
> would replace plain text but it hasn't.


[snip]


>>By the way, by far not "everyone" reads HOWTOs (or whatever for that
>>matter) in HTML. I am one of the few that read *all* documents online,
>>on the screen, and (consequently) I "read HOWTOS in HTML". Me and a
>>few others (who I still have to meet) are not everyone: the vast
>>majority of the people I know prefer to *print* the document and then
>>really read it (as opposed to just skim it).
> 
> This is a big waste of paper.  I think that most people mostly read
> stuff on their PC screens, either offline or online.


 From what I hear this is to a large extent a question of age; the
younger generation apparently prefers reading on-screen to take
advantage of searching, bookmarking and other functions. Strangely
adding annotations seems to be a little used function. One might
hypothesise that exposure to incoherent TV makes for nonlinear
reading habits...

While I too like reading the monitor (linearly I might add) I do
find it hard to understand how it is possible to read off the tiny
screen of a cellphone.

My point here is that there is a multitude of preferences and that
these vary in time and with available technology.

> Regarding the sematic web.  I don't think that the tags contribute all
> that much to sematic understanding.


The first generation web search engines were big on boolean logic
and other fancy features to locate the desired information. Then
came Google and provided a simpler yet more effective principle.

I would therefore hope that progress through the next few decades
will continue to simplify things and not require elaborate
schemes in order to reach the goals.

Regards,
    Stein Gjoen

Simon Anderson wrote:

[snip]


> So far, you have insinuated or flat out stated that I am a troll, 
> incompetent, insecure, inconsistent and worst of all that my document is 
> unlikely to be worthwhile. You've also, against all reason, belittled any 
> suggestion that the Author Guide is unhelpful and that there are barriers 
> to publication at the LDP difficult for new Authors to overcome.


The barriers are well known and the templates are my efforts to
simplify the matters for new authors. Like a few others I use LinuxDoc
which is available as a debian package and works out of the box.

Various online editing tools have been proposed but as always we are
lacking the time and resources to do this yet.

> Tabatha considers you to have "been here to help." Which I take to 
> mean that your opinions are ones with which she (and by extension 
> the rest of LDP) agrees. I disagree however and think that your posts 
> prove my initial point; the LDP (or rather; elements of it) present a 
> barrier to new authors.


Actually there is no single person in TLDP that has the auhority to
speak on behalf of everyone else; considering the wide spectrum of
opinions that would quite simply be impossible.

There used to be another option to installing the entire tool chain, to
process documents using a mail based service, is this still operational?

Regards,
    Stein Gjoen

On Sun, Jul 27, 2003 at 10:30:27PM -0500, Simon Anderson wrote:
> The Author guide is not much better; "you need this this and this" but not 
> "this is how you install and configure the various pieces and start using 
> them.."

I haven't read through to the end of the thread yet, but I wanted to
remind people that I AM working on re-writing the Author Guide. I've been
on a (much needed) break from my computer on a 2000km road trip. I'll
probably have a working draft of the re-write within the next week.

emma

-- 
Emma Jane Hogbin
[[ 416 417 2868 ][ www.xtrinsic.com ]]