discuss: Thread: re:Online editing (was: One-page replacement for LDP-Author-Guide)

On 02 May 2003 13:26:24 -0700 Tabatha Persad ####@####.#### wrote:

> Hi Howard,
> ...
> 
> The "form" idea, where a user could enter the relevant document
> information, and then proceed to fill in the blanks until the document
> is complete, is to me the secret of success. 
> ...

I'm not so sure.

How do you intend to enter tables, lists, code examples, graphics, 
etc. - all the content for the body of the document? Will the user 
need to know some form of markup? Or will they 'drop into' having to
use DocBook? 

It's very *easy* to pull together a  form to assemble a skeleton document, 
with some associated header and meta-data fields (like taking
Sample-HOWTO.xml and slamming in fields from a form the user fills out). 
It's quite another problem to provide *true* document content editing! 
So what are the plans for that? I suppose you could have clickable
entries for each tag-type that would in turn pop up a specific form,
and allow the user to fill-in data, but that to me is very "clunky'.

I'll stick with good old reliable vi ! ;-)

--
Greg

yea i am not sure how a form based editor will work out.

i think tree based editor might work. Where the whole XML is represented as
a huge tree, and each element will be a node in the tree.

Again, for it to be NOT clunky, would require it to be a Active X Control,
or Java Applet.

Or maybe a XForm running in Macromedia Flash Player ;)


In Peace,
Saqib Ali
http://www.seagate.com/cheetah/


|---------+---------------------------->
|         |           Greg Ferguson    |
|         |           ####@####.####  |
|         |           No Phone Info    |
|         |           Available        |
|         |                            |
|         |           05/02/2003 01:46 |
|         |           PM               |
|         |           Please respond to|
|         |           gferg            |
|         |                            |
|---------+---------------------------->
  >---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
  |                                                                                                                                             |
  |       To:       ####@####.####                                                                                                    |
  |       cc:       ####@####.####                                                                                                         |
  |       Subject:  re:Online editing (was: One-page replacement for LDP-Author-Guide)                                                          |
  >---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|




On 02 May 2003 13:26:24 -0700 Tabatha Persad ####@####.####
wrote:

> Hi Howard,
> ...
>
> The "form" idea, where a user could enter the relevant document
> information, and then proceed to fill in the blanks until the document
> is complete, is to me the secret of success.
> ...

I'm not so sure.

How do you intend to enter tables, lists, code examples, graphics,
etc. - all the content for the body of the document? Will the user
need to know some form of markup? Or will they 'drop into' having to
use DocBook?

It's very *easy* to pull together a  form to assemble a skeleton document,
with some associated header and meta-data fields (like taking
Sample-HOWTO.xml and slamming in fields from a form the user fills out).
It's quite another problem to provide *true* document content editing!
So what are the plans for that? I suppose you could have clickable
entries for each tag-type that would in turn pop up a specific form,
and allow the user to fill-in data, but that to me is very "clunky'.

I'll stick with good old reliable vi ! ;-)

--
Greg





______________________
http://lists.tldp.org/

On Fri, 2003-05-02 at 13:46, Greg Ferguson wrote:
> On 02 May 2003 13:26:24 -0700 Tabatha Persad ####@####.#### wrote:
> > The "form" idea, where a user could enter the relevant document
> > information, and then proceed to fill in the blanks until the document
> > is complete, is to me the secret of success. 
> > ...

> How do you intend to enter tables, lists, code examples, graphics, 
> etc. - all the content for the body of the document? Will the user 
> need to know some form of markup? Or will they 'drop into' having to
> use DocBook? 

I think a user could get by with the concept of markup without having to
necessarily know it.  For example, when editing a paragraph that has a
command in it, I browse through the DocBook tags to find the most
suitable tag (in that case, <command>).  Perhaps there is a menu or list
of basic markup items (not tables or graphics or the more complicated
things) for the user to choose from to markup a particular word or
phrase. 

For more complicated items (as you mention below), maybe the user could
select, say, "table" from a list, and then they could enter some details
about the table, like rows and columns, add some headings, and then
enter the table data once a table was generated.  Once complete, the
entire table markup along with the entered data would all be together. 
(In my head I keep seeing a user choose an "Insert" button, choosing an
item they want in their doc, and then being prompted for the content
until it can be generated with its markup.  Users could always go back
into areas, or leave them blank and fill them in later, because the form
would provide them with the field based on the "item" choice they'd
made.)

For a graphic insertion, maybe a user could click a link to browse their
hard drive for the file and then submit the graphic; they may be
prompted for specs on the layout, if any are available (like tags that
contain blah="something"), but if it were done in a form/wizard kind of
way the user wouldn't have to learn that markup, only make a few
decisions on placement or type of items.  Maybe along the way they'll
start understanding the structure and move to an offline editor of their
choice... done correctly, it could help people learn a little as they
go.  (I'll always be an optimist, no matter how many of you tell me I'm
crazy!)  :D

> It's very *easy* to pull together a  form to assemble a skeleton document, 
> with some associated header and meta-data fields (like taking
> Sample-HOWTO.xml and slamming in fields from a form the user fills out). 
> It's quite another problem to provide *true* document content editing! 
> So what are the plans for that? I suppose you could have clickable
> entries for each tag-type that would in turn pop up a specific form,
> and allow the user to fill-in data, but that to me is very "clunky'.
> 
> I'll stick with good old reliable vi ! ;-)

I agree, online editing probably wouldn't be a perfect process, but I'm
sure there are ways to make it simple enough for people getting
started.  Skeleton documents/templates are kind of what would be used in
an online environment too, just that you're filling them in as you go
with fields instead of between tags.

I guess a lot of this would have to depend on what kind of users would
be using the tool - whether they are experienced with markup or not -
and other criteria.  Do I want so much that it's impossible, or not very
viable?  :D
 
-- 
Tabatha Persad
Web: www.merlinmonroe.com
Linux Documentation Project Review Coordinator (http://www.tldp.org)
Linux Counter Area Manager US:wa (http://counter.li.org)

I thought java applets myself when we conceived of the idea, however I
know this presents new problems too - some people don't have java.  

I'm a little wary of the tree layout, simply because I don't find it
NEW-user friendly (just an opinion - keep in mind I've tech supported a
lot of people in my career that shouldn't have been even using
computers!).  Maybe it just depends on how it's done.  Some of the
Windows XML editors aren't bad... I'm just not willing to pay for
anything, and sick of all these darn trial versions.  I've familiarized
myself with tree-views of xml documents, and I'm not a big fan of seeing
my work that way... maybe I'm just getting too set in my ways!

The advantages of the online environment are that the document creation,
reviewing and processing can be all linked together.  I think some
tie-in between these would be nice.

I guess where I'm going with all of this is to see the LDP
self-efficient on the web - a place where people can go not only to read
docs, but also have tools readily available for authors, reviewers and
web administration.  Everything.  The whole kit and kaboodle.

Hey, I'm a dreamer!  

Tab

On Fri, 2003-05-02 at 13:56, ####@####.#### wrote:
> yea i am not sure how a form based editor will work out.
> 
> i think tree based editor might work. Where the whole XML is represented as
> a huge tree, and each element will be a node in the tree.
> 
> Again, for it to be NOT clunky, would require it to be a Active X Control,
> or Java Applet.
> 
> Or maybe a XForm running in Macromedia Flash Player ;)
> 
> 
> In Peace,
> Saqib Ali
> http://www.seagate.com/cheetah/
> 
> 
> |---------+---------------------------->
> |         |           Greg Ferguson    |
> |         |           ####@####.####  |
> |         |           No Phone Info    |
> |         |           Available        |
> |         |                            |
> |         |           05/02/2003 01:46 |
> |         |           PM               |
> |         |           Please respond to|
> |         |           gferg            |
> |         |                            |
> |---------+---------------------------->
>   >---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
>   |                                                                                                                                             |
>   |       To:       ####@####.####                                                                                                    |
>   |       cc:       ####@####.####                                                                                                         |
>   |       Subject:  re:Online editing (was: One-page replacement for LDP-Author-Guide)                                                          |
>   >---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 02 May 2003 13:26:24 -0700 Tabatha Persad ####@####.####
> wrote:
> 
> > Hi Howard,
> > ...
> >
> > The "form" idea, where a user could enter the relevant document
> > information, and then proceed to fill in the blanks until the document
> > is complete, is to me the secret of success.
> > ...
> 
> I'm not so sure.
> 
> How do you intend to enter tables, lists, code examples, graphics,
> etc. - all the content for the body of the document? Will the user
> need to know some form of markup? Or will they 'drop into' having to
> use DocBook?
> 
> It's very *easy* to pull together a  form to assemble a skeleton document,
> with some associated header and meta-data fields (like taking
> Sample-HOWTO.xml and slamming in fields from a form the user fills out).
> It's quite another problem to provide *true* document content editing!
> So what are the plans for that? I suppose you could have clickable
> entries for each tag-type that would in turn pop up a specific form,
> and allow the user to fill-in data, but that to me is very "clunky'.
> 
> I'll stick with good old reliable vi ! ;-)
> 
> --
> Greg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ______________________
> http://lists.tldp.org/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ______________________
> http://lists.tldp.org/
-- 
Tabatha Persad
Web: www.merlinmonroe.com
Linux Documentation Project Review Coordinator (http://www.tldp.org)
Linux Counter Area Manager US:wa (http://counter.li.org)

On  Fri, 02-05-2003 at 17:14, Tabatha Persad wrote:
[...]
> 
> I agree, online editing probably wouldn't be a perfect process, but I'm
> sure there are ways to make it simple enough for people getting
> started.  

	There is already some progress made in that direction, please take
a look at

	http://phpxiedit.sourceforge.net

	It is free software and there is an online demo on

http://phpxiedit.sourceforge.net/phpxiedit/demo_v0_7_beta/index.php

-- 
Jaime Davila

On Fri, May 02, 2003 at 02:29:01PM -0700, Tabatha Persad wrote:
> The advantages of the online environment are that the document creation,
> reviewing and processing can be all linked together.  I think some
> tie-in between these would be nice.

I don't think an online environment is all that desirable.  We need
authors that know about Linux and have it installed on a PC.  If one can
just write things online, then someone who is using a PC in a public
library, who knows little about Linux, can attempt to author a doc.
This is a downside to on-line editing.

Another problem is that no one should be expected to learn a new
editor/word processor for on-line editing.  So if we provide on-line
editing, we should have a very wide selection of editors/word processors
and they all should be free.  This is, at the present time, too
difficult of a task for what I think would be of little benefit.

As far as processing goes, in Linuxdoc it's as simple as typing:
sgml2html my-HOWTO.sgml.  You don't have to configure anything.  (Sorry
but I'm months behind on answering my email.)

			David Lawyer