Subject:
Re: Linux Model is Unix model ? So where's TLDP ?
From:
Mathieu Deschamps ####@####.####
Date:
7 Mar 2005 17:58:28 -0000
Message-Id: <20050307175802.60068.qmail@web60403.mail.yahoo.com>
Emma Jane Hogbin ####@####.#### wrote:
Hello,
(Again, please DO NOT CC me on you replies, I am subscribed to the list
and emails that come in twice tend to get deleted by mistake as I forget
that I've already deleted the first one. Thanks.)
+ Oups sorry.
On Mon, Mar 07, 2005 at 04:17:52PM +0100, Mathieu Deschamps wrote:
> + Programmers like documentation (eg. it help coding), one day a programmer +implements something new. He reminds to write doc. in order to share the vision, but +mostly he wants other fellows to pick up his work
In general, most of the authors I've worked with on this project
are not programmers. They are documentation authors, or people who have
had a specific problem using a specific piece of software and have decided
to share their documents with a larger audience. Many are new to writing
documentation. Some "expert" authors think they are too clever to read
the full Author Guide. This is fine. Some "new" authors think they are too
clever to read the full Author Guide as well. However, I also get many
compliments on the Guide, so I guess some people are clever enough to scan
through the table of contents and read the parts that are interesting to
them.
* I'am sorry to see you pick my answer to attack me personnally. And please don't be on the defensive stance, in saying prog. he wasn't not meanning coders or expert people, I wanted to say people that like to test their system and such (they have to like these otherwise why would they read FINE documentation). After what you've said to me earlier, I could expected you to argue on my vocab. I've scanned theses doc, I did not find what i was looking for, no matter how clever I am.
I spent 8 months changing The Author Guide so that it would make sense to
people like me. I *like* reading technical documentation. Ask any of my
friends in real life and they will tell you that I do not read fiction.
I have received a number of compliments on the revised Author Guide, so
clearly it is good for SOME learning styles. It is not perfect for ALL
learning styles. I am not offended if it does not work for you. You do
not like to read long documents in a language you are not familiar with.
* Pick me on my language as long as you want, this does even not touch me, you know english is derivated in many dialect, and that is as difficult as writing good french. Oh that's it... how stupid am I... I never say you should be a shame your work isn't perfect, eight month of work I do respect. Well I'am going to be more constructive : I tried to say that SOMEPEOPLE like (eg.) schemes and moreover theses help understanding and needn't translation so this is more, on a congnitive view, easy to assimilate. I read lot of doc and as you I *like* it, that's why on this peculiar aspect it would spare some time and energy for somepeople to have an alternative.
THAT'S OK!! The most important thing the Author Guide tells *new* authors
(that is the target audience!) is that the most important thing you can do
as an author is to WRITE YOUR DOCUMENT. It doesn't matter what format they
are in. We will convert it for you. The rest of the document is (mostly)
details for people who LIKE to read details (and I assure you there are
people who do like this--please do not assume that we don't exist).
*I never wrote such a thing, I consider as much as I could everybody . Concerning the "we do all your doc for you" I've said that I wasn't interested, I want to know how to make it and try by myself. At last, I said that If you offer that possibility that was not clear enough. I think, doing so, could help you fulfill your will expressed (being _the_ doc centre, the reference in the linux world) in the manifest. I quote :
"The overall goal of the LDP is to collaborate in *all of the issues* of Linux documentation. This includes the creation of "HOWTOs" and "Guides". We hope to establish a system of documentation for Linux that *will be easy to use and search* "
Finally, shouting at me woudn't make anything going better.
> +Complete: I feel this community work in closed circuit, in opacity and want to share the +hows and the whys only if you're in for several years, and have time to waste, this is +cathedral policy no a bazaar policy. But I don't want to be too severe maybe that's hard +to stay light and simple and to stand the test of time (10 years, nice).
I don't feel it is a closed circuit. I've been working with the group for
a little while now and I think that the group is open to new ideas. But
the group is also realistic about asking who has the time to implement
these new ideas. Just like programmers "out there" the group asks, "Show
me how this will work for us, don't just tell me what you think I should
build." This is not elitist in my mind.
*Show how this would work, I try to do so plus read the posts you'll see there are ideas and samples already. Right, this is true implementation is a great piece of work. But if it is more "integration-able" there will be more people to help there.
> +What if I just have to 'Post' my doc on a specific matter (which has, by the way, very few +doc) without being a member of LDP. You see it we don't share the same vision, you and +I don't want to be associed each other anyway, do you ? Ok but where's in the +Unix/Linux model is said I couldn't do both ? ("Post" without being a member I mean, +without eg. having to receved daily tons of mails).
Haha. Sorry, but that did make me laugh. :) Of course you can post your
documents on your own web site without being a part of the LDP. You may
also join the list for a very brief time, submit your document for peer
review, and once it has been accepted you may quit the list again. Most
documents are not accepted on the first post because they are not finished
yet. So you hop on the list, post the doc, hop off and read the archives
through your web browser. I don't think it says anywhere that you CANNOT
do this?
* Laugh all's out, this is proved to be a destresser, sorry that make me laugh ;).
*Really ? you refuse doc because it is unfinished ? So what are the revision for ? When a doc is said finished ? Look, that doesn't stand still...
*If you don't stat what is possible to do, how come I guess ? New, by definition tends to mean that you aren't familiar with the "how LTP deal with the community ", don't you think ?.
> +This is good to my sense if it renew clean some dirty things. Don't say doc doesn't +attract people, that's a mistake. Having a vade meccum, widely spread, frequently +updated, of a good quality and easy accessable is all Linux users/progs. dream of +provided is display (on the same criterias) the way to learn it. Don't blame anyone +specific and at least not volonteers.
Writing good documentation does not attract a lot of people--but most
people do like to *read* good documentation. Sometimes when I lecture on
it I can fill a room with 30-60 people. But most of the times I get less
than 10. And I am a good public speaker. ;) Not the best, but it is was
I do professionally...
* Really ? How lucky are ! Lucky I mean talented, this must be an interesting job. I'am not bad as well, you must admit this. Don't even believe I put your talent in question, I surely have lot to learn for people like you. I can assume you are far more expercienced than I. In fact, you surely accumulate more awards than I do. But every single remarks in my threads is a result of seasoned-methods aiming to ameliorate the service of TLDP. As I already said LDP is more that a doc. dispenser but it is set as it is. It need more volonteer but they never been so low. From your word you said it's perfect for all the learning style, now you know. Will you leave this knowing you actually are the reference of linux documentation ? I can assist, help, work with you to consider differences in learning styles, and structure beside the current model, another one, letting to user the freedom to choose which model fits best to is needs according to TLDP manifesto. You were talking about your job,
this is mine, and I'am a professionnal as well. Now you can say good'bye farewell, I will keep my doc (that is just a bit useful anyway) and my contribution (anyway who really cares ? ) for other time.
thanks,
emma
*cordialy, mathieu
--
Emma Jane Hogbin
I18N Coordinator, The Linux Documentation Project
www.tldp.org
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