Subject:
Re: [Fwd: Re: LSM in Bordeaux]
From:
Jorge Godoy ####@####.####
Date:
9 Jul 2004 15:43:24 -0000
Message-Id: <200407091243.58296.godoy@ieee.org>
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On Friday 09 July 2004 03:04, Jean-Philippe Guérard wrote:
First of all, I'm trying to show you our experience down here, not
trying to convince you. I am an enthusiast of such an union and I
really want to see that happens, so read my message with an open mind
but don't think about letting your freedom go. The decision belongs
to you and your team.
> Our situation is a little different. We are not a big integrated
> project. All projects inside the association are independent
> projects. The association is a tool for us to manage some common
> actions (being officially represented in conferences and
> expositions, participation in "Translation days") and gives a legal
> status to the Internet sites and lists.
This is the same here with br.tldp.org.
We have separated projects, that are somehow tied with us at
br.tldp.org. One person can't manage everything...
Off course, not each and every project is here with us, but somehow
they all were born here and are still related in some way. This is
the example of KDE and Gnome, as guylhem said.
> We think that this is a worthwhile direction to take. However, for
> the moment, we are not yet ready to integrate a big organisation.
> We still are in the process of building the traduc.org project. If
> we start dispersing ourselves, we will go nowhere and our projects
> run the risk of disappearing.
I'm sorry, but in what manner would integrating TLDP interfere with
your individual projects? All we have to do is to have a
<lang>.tldp.org alias and have material published under the same
guidelines --- i.e. free documentation, preferably, respect
copyrights, etc. --- that TLDP does.
Just it. You don't have to submit weekly or mothly reports, you don't
have to host your docs at TLDP servers, you don't have to do a lot of
things that are or not intrusive in any way. The only thing is the
alias and respecting the policies not abusing other people work.
> We are clearly in favor of synergies. Provided that they are
> targeted at the down-to-earth subjects that are our priorities.
Where having the alias would be too much of a hassle? In fact, I think
it's fine to have it as a CNAME at your DNS and just add an entry in
your Apache server. It's a 2 minute work. Seriously.
> We are ready to discuss with the other projects and exchange ideas,
> so that each project can reuse the best ideas. It might also be
> interesting to reuse some tools and software that have been
> designed by other projects.
It is always an open possibility.
What we aim with the integration of the several distributed projects
is to have a reference point for the users around the world and also
to people interested in writing new documentation.
For instance, when someone wants to write a new document, in French,
where would they look for support and documentation on how to write a
doc? Where would they look for instructions on how are docs
structured, how to use and what tools to use for this task? Where can
they publish their work? Where would they look to see if there's
nothing being done or already done to avoid work duplication and
waste of time?
Our intent is to have a central place, linking those individual places
and concentrating common information.
I don't know if you got my point (I'm trying to help one person with
an MTA problem at the same time I'm writing this, but I wanted it to
reach you ASAP, so that you can again discuss with your own board).
> I do not agree on the topic of amateurism. Even if our organisation
> is still far from being perfect, we have made some real work,
> implemented an organisation, designed tools and documents that
> enable us to get better and better.
And this is getting rid of amateurism. It wasn't implied that you were
amateurs and we were professionals or vice-versa.
The tools you developed could benefit a larger amount of people if
they were available to them, if your effort was known to other
people.
Everything starts as a garage project, then grows a little, becomes
public, has supporters of the idea and then becomes "professional"
and widely used, with other people helping to maintain and improve
it.
The idea is to share the knowledge and tools to share it.
> And we continue to do so, translating documents and software,
> getting better organised and promoting French translation of free
> software. This work by itself is beneficial to each of our member
> projects. It also can benefit other translation projects, as the
> people starting to do translations with us do not hesitate to go
> help other projects :)
It wouldn't change anything...
> We will be unable to help you with this. Collecting donations is
> not among the aims of our association.
You could benefit from the sharing. We don't collect anything here in
Brazil too... (Even though I know some people who donate money to
TLDP, for I know that they asked me for where to send money to...)
We don't expect that TLDP would pay us something or fund us, but if we
can work together to make it fund some actions that would benefit us
and other teams, why not?
> Our volunteers are, by definition, free to go wherever they want.
> We have neither the power, nor the desire to dispatch them.
Same as us. There are some people from TLDP at LSM in Bordeaux. I
think some of them are funded by TLDP... This is what is interesting.
It is extremely expensive for me to travel abroad, but sometimes it
might be interesting for TLDP to fund or get somebody to fund my
trips (it happened twice, where companies funded my airplane tickets
and hotel room, for meetings where we discussed TLDP things and
represented TLDP in the event).
> Our aim is not to compete with private publishers, but really to
> offer the free software community translated documents (and
> software) in French. Which is our way to contribute to the common
> effort.
Our aim here is different. We aim not only translate but also create
documentation. There are several docs that could --- and should ---
be translated to English and that are only available in Brazilian
Portuguese.
As I've just finished college --- the world is a dangerous place now,
with one more engineer at loose! --- I can dedicate much mor of my
time to TLDP and have some old ideas coming alive. I surely count
with the help and some of the structure of TLDP to reduce my work and
to make available information and tools to other teams.
> These tasks represent a relatively small effort to us. The real
> effort for us is translating documents and proofreading.
>
> Centralising those tasks will therefore not be terribly helpful.
And won't be intrusive.
This way you can benefit from some of TLDP's structure where it can
help you and without any work at all.
> Moreover, administering the mail lists requires to understand the
> language spoken on the list. Which restricts the possibilities of
> centralizing this work.
We have pt_BR mailing lists... In pt_BR and administered by us, in our
own servers.
> Federating foreign-languages projects is not one of our priorities.
> We are more focused on synergies between French-language projects.
I'm interested in having *one* French-language project. Gathering all
the libre documentation in French it can.
Notice that I'm not saying that all projects in French should be under
your wings, but that if it is possible it would be great to be done.
> To be an unofficial translation project is fine with us. We are
> ready to work together, to help, but we do not wish to be
> integrated for the moment.
Unofficial is not bad. It means you aren't linked and opted for
something different, just that.
Being "official" (I think that this is a bad word, but I don't
remember of a better English word for this relationship we seek)
means having the link working, and reusing the structure TLDP already
has.
We share structure for you to share work and information.
> Could you be more precise? Interoperability with who? Will the new
> LDP license be free under the definition of the Debian project? Do
> you mean that the official translation projects will be the only
> ones allowed to translate LDP documents?
I won't agree with restricting translations to TLDP "official" members
only. I think other people think the same way.
DFSG is more focused on *software*. This is also one of the reasons
there are free documentation licenses that focuses on *documentation*
particularities.
Anyway, without seeing it I can guarantee you it won't be restrictive
with regards to using, publishing, mirroring, translating, etc. that
is essential with free documentation.
> For the moment, we translate only free documents and we publish
> them only under the same free licences. Is there any reason why
> this should change?
To avoid abuse of documentation is one example.
> So, for the moment, staff is the only available list? No
> possibility to discuss informally with the other projects?
The staff list is very informal. There are the representative of the
other projects who can take their opinions to their own contributors
and helpers and them take the decisions back, if it is needed.
You won't loose control of your own project. We will share
coordinating experience and problems with you.
> > If you have a good expertise in the field of mailing lists, you
> > could take over this part. The aim is to have small group
> > developing a tool that, once it will have the required quality,
> > will be standardised and used by all projects (English, Spanish,
> > Portuguese, Korean, Italian, ...)
>
> Hum... To be frank, I don't see us developing a competitor to
> Mailman, Sympa, or Enemies of Carlotta. And I don't see us managing
> lists in multiple languages we don't understand.
There's no need to. You can do what we do:
* have a coodination mailing list where the representatives are (à la
staff mailing list)
* have each coordinator to take care of policies and etc. for their
lists (à la individual team or projects mailing lists)
* one team responsible for the server maintenance, upgrade, setup,
etc. (that is what one of the teams could dedicate itself to, while
using resources that are handled the same way by other teams).
Such a structure doesn't require you to write a new application. I
thing the the word "develop" was used with the idea of the third
bullet above, not with the idea of creating new tools, after all we
are *nix users! We keep things simple, efficient and effective. ;-)
If there's mailman, ezmlm, etc. around, why should we waste our
resources writing a new one? We can improve those or help them with
documentation, bug reports, enhancement requests, etc.
I see that a request from TLDP for the Mailman developers is much more
appealing than a request from the Brazilian Portuguese documentation
project. There are more users and needs under TLDP than here. (Even
though they would probably pay attention to both...)
> We have no skill in software development. Or at least, we are not
> organised to do this kind of job. We are just translators.
We are and we have and you could benefit from that.
If you don't want to contribute with this kind of work I don't see any
problem for you to contribute with work and information for french
people. I wouldn't mind working with TLDP to have you getting your
job done better.
> We translate, and we try to do it well.
So, do it! ;-)
> We will be happy to work with this organisation as soon as it is
> in place. It will be free to use our tools and documents. We'll be
> happy to learn from its good ideas.
>
> Even, potentially, to merge with it when the time comes.
>
> I wish this project to be successful, but we do not have the means
> to become a part of it, apart from informal exchanges of ideas and
> collaboration with the concrete work done by the LDP.
Why can't you at least give it a try and share your ideas with us now,
to make it grow faster and in a direction that you approve as well?
Such a French "translation" will be very useful for me to practice
mine... Do you have an MP3 of it? ;-) Just kidding!
Now, let me say about my wishes...
Having the TLDP to focus on free documentation (as in free speech and
in free beer) for free operating systems (not Linux only).
I also wish to have people from everywhere, sharing a vision and this
mission with us.
Having an organized french team is important. And it is important to
have teams from everywhere, since users should have an option and
should have means to use free software.
My first priority will be to make a new project for the br.tldp.org to
move from our own everything to use as much of TLDP structure we can
and think it is necessary now. This will help even more with our own
work --- for instance with CVS, the website if we think it is
possible, etc. --- and will reduce our burden on maintenance of such
things. We will be able to focus on what we wish: free documentation.
Be seeing you,
- --
Godoy. ####@####.####
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