discuss: Review needed of 'Encourage Women in Linux' HOWTO
Subject:
Re: Review needed of 'Encourage Women in Linux' HOWTO
From:
rahul ####@####.####
Date:
7 Dec 2003 12:48:09 -0000
Message-Id: <3FD32182.2030702@yahoo.co.in>
Val Henson wrote:
>Howdy,
>
>I've joined the discuss list for the duration of this particular
>subject. I'm currently working on a revision of HOWTO Encourage Women
>in Linux and I'm always interested in feedback.
>
>
Great. This is much better than roundabout way to mailing the authors
seperately. When I said that this looks like another Al dev epiosde it
wasnt to mean that this was another bad document which should be pulled out.
Al dev's howtos being removed out of the howtos is a precedent setting
incident. Quoting it when another similar issue pops up is not a non
professional behaviour. Even the justice system works like that.
The bottom line is that LDP should act as a resource for people who are
working with Linux. If Al dev's howto are being removed or Val Henson
revises what he/she wrote then that means we are acting towards
improving LDP which is what everyone wants.
>As has been pointed out in the past, this particular HOWTO has been
>through quite extensive review, both inside LinuxChix and outside. I
>regularly receive feedback on it through email, in addition to
>discussing it with co-workers, friends, and family.
>
Ok. Linuxchik is a place very similar to a LUG. Think about it.
Why do we LUG's while we dont have WUG's.?
Why do we have Linuxchik when we dont have Linux dudes?
If you have recieved good feedback from Linuxchik which is very likely
that isnt necessarily same as general user feedback
> Being a naturally
>vain and self-centered person, I regularly Google for it and even
>auto-translate the things people have written about it in other
>languages (usually consisting of, and I joke not, "I wonder if I can
>get a date with one of those LinuxChix, hubba hubba!").
>
>
Well. We really dont have many women in the LUG's around here(India). If
some girl turns up people are bound to notice esp if she is attractive
and comment on that. Treating a women as different from men isnt sexist
by any means. I read a rather sarcastic article on this linked from
ESR's blogs recently. I am not telling you this is the way it should be
but I dont expect otherwise. If more and more women come to the LUG then
people will treat them more casually. Again I see a similarity to Linux.
> or "I am
>a woman in Linux and I'm worried that the HOWTO is too mean and you'll
>scare away the 'good guys,'"
>
Encouraging men to participate in Linux chik is bound to be more useful.
I would honestly like to understand the issues better. If females talk
around with other females and bash males who didnt behave as they should
what are we trying to achieve here?
> or "I am a woman in Linux and you left
>out this one thing that really pisses me off." As far as I can tell,
>the content of the HOWTO is factually true when it comes to describing
>how most women in Linux would like to be treated.
>
>
Agreed. Imagine you are a guy *trying* to treat women well. Are you
going to get encouraged to do better reading this howto?
If not? Shouldnt we try to do that?
>Raymond, reading your email, I get the sense that you are in the camp
>of "Act like sexism doesn't exist and it will go away." While I
>applaud your sentiments,
>
I dis try that. I took things in the wrong sense. I tried to treat guys
and girls exactly the same. You know what?. It doesnt work. It
backfires miserably. Women and Men *dont* want the same things. Looks
like common sense but worth repeating.
> I disagree with your methods. Until sexism
>is gone, I need to make sweeping generalizations (which are clearly
>marked as such by phrases as "tends to" or "are socialized to") in
>order to communicate to people which behaviors are encouraging women
>in Linux and which are discouraging us.
>
Your approach is wrong. Your howto might be biased towards women. I
have no problem with accepting that but you are restricting your
audience if reasonable people cant read it without feeling bad about the
generalisations.
> This HOWTO is a direct
>response (as it says in the introduction) to men asking for concrete
>advice on what to do differently - because they didn't know what was
>sexist. I realize this is insulting to men who _do_ know what to do -
>but I don't need to write a HOWTO for people who already know how-to.
>
>I appreciate everyone's feedback and comments - especially when they
>are accompanied by specific examples. "You're male-bashing," is much
>less useful than "In Section 2.5, you said "Men are pigs," and I
>thought that might be better phrased as 'Men tend to be
>hygiene-challenged.'"
>
>Thanks!
>
>-VAL
>
>
I feel more offended if someone tells me men are hygiene challenged
rather than just calling all men pigs.
If a woman calls men pigs, she probably is very hurt and I would try to
understand why she is angry and talk with her. If someone says men are
hygiene challenged that person is making a bad generalisation and I
wouldnt want to work with them.
Your howto is not technical. It addresses a important problem. It should
stay within the collection along with a good number of other non
technical howtos. It probably will remain controversial but I would
appreciate a balanced approach.
Thanks for listening
Regards
Rahul Sundaram
